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I don't understand

Hambil

I AM A GOLDEN GOD
I've wandered outside the minefield for this thread, because I really don't understand. A few days ago I read that the new Palestinian Authority had renounced violence and called for a renewal of a cease fire. Then I read they were debating recognizing Isreal's right to exist. And then suddenly, Isreal is dropping bombs on their president and rounding up people and rolling tanks into the Gaza strip.

Now, I'm not pro or anti Isreal, I've sort of sat on the sidelines, but I don't understand this. What is going on, from someone who is more up on this stuff?
 
The extremely simplified version is this: Palestine has been a thorn in the side of Israel for years by blasting randomly at every Israeli in the area, especially in the jointly inhabited and hotly contested West Bank on the Gaza strip. Israel has responded by blasting randomly as whatever Palestinians they find handy with superior, American supplied weaponry.

recently, after years of pointless struggle, the Israelis finally seemed to give up a key demand to the Palestinians and removed all of their jews from the contested areas, pulling lifetime residents from the West Bank and Gaza amid much crying, handwringing and publicity. In exchange, the Palestinians were supposed to stop bombing shopping malls and buses.

However, shortly after the pullout Israel began building a big honking wall around the Palestinians, theoretically for self-protection. Since indiscriminate bombings have continued, they had a semi-valid point.

Then, last week, some nondescript soldier from Israel was kidnapped by palestinians. Hence the current buildup and attack on gaza and the Bank.

Now, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but if I were a leader of a country constantly being annoyed by a pesky, invisible foe, I might consider pretending to cave in so that I could get all MY people safely out of the area, then rope the lot of them off, and given any opportunity, blow the fuckers to hell. Not that that is what has happened over the last year in the Middle east, but I'm just saying is all. It's awfully convenient that there are no potential Jewish collateral damage victims in the way now...any leader wanting to wage war now could do so with impunity.

Capitulate, Isolate, Retaliate, Eradicate. Pretty old warfare tactic. It's how Sam Houston took out Santa Ana. I just hope heaven has their virgin supply stocked up, because I think they're gonna get a run on martyrs pretty quick.
 
Hambil said:
I've wandered outside the minefield for this thread, because I really don't understand. A few days ago I read that the new Palestinian Authority had renounced violence and called for a renewal of a cease fire. Then I read they were debating recognizing Isreal's right to exist. And then suddenly, Isreal is dropping bombs on their president and rounding up people and rolling tanks into the Gaza strip.

Now, I'm not pro or anti Isreal, I've sort of sat on the sidelines, but I don't understand this. What is going on, from someone who is more up on this stuff?
It's very simple:

A group of rich Jews got together and asked the then British Empire to give them Palestine, which was under their control.

Jewish terrorist groups began to spring up, and started to bomb the natives (And the British) out of there.

Then after WWII, they, with an incredibly powerful lobby in Washington, started to recieve billions of $s to build up a very impressive war machine, all the while spying on various countries, stealing technology, and carrying out assassinations and bombings meant to stir up trouble with the Arabs, by pointing the finger at them.

All while a bunch of olive tree-growing peasants were raped and murdered, their olive trees uprooted for Israeli citizens, their entire livelihood and homeland destroyed. They bulldozed towns, poisoned their wells, burned and pillaged their harvests, and even bragged about those towns being wiped from history forever.

Now that Israel has a foothold (And because the general public has such a short memory,) the conflict can easily be portrayed as somehow being something other than a one-sided massacre and wholesale ethnic cleansing.

Basically the Jews, unlike Hitler, managed to successfully and utterly PWN an entire group of once-peaceful farmers, all for the purpose of lebensraum.
 
Donovan said:
Now, I'm not one for conspiracy theories, but if I were a leader of a country constantly being annoyed by a pesky, invisible foe, I might consider pretending to cave in so that I could get all MY people safely out of the area, then rope the lot of them off, and given any opportunity, blow the fuckers to hell. Not that that is what has happened over the last year in the Middle east, but I'm just saying is all. It's awfully convenient that there are no potential Jewish collateral damage victims in the way now...any leader wanting to wage war now could do so with impunity.

Capitulate, Isolate, Retaliate, Eradicate. Pretty old warfare tactic. It's how Sam Houston took out Santa Ana. I just hope heaven has their virgin supply stocked up, because I think they're gonna get a run on martyrs pretty quick.

This is actually a pretty good conspiracy theory -- I'd probably take it seriously except for all the internal power struggles within the Israeli government during this same timeframe. Unless you're talking about a HOLY FUCK THIS WILL BE THE MOST-REMEMBERED CONSPIRACY EVA kind of conspiracy.

I just don't see how Israel thinks they can get away with pushing so hard this time -- we're not credible or powerful enough to back them up at the moment and if they actually grab Gaza all hell will break loose...
 
Ultros said:
It's very simple:

A group of rich Jews got together and asked the then British Empire to give them Palestine, which was under their control.

Jewish terrorist groups began to spring up, and started to bomb the natives (And the British) out of there.

Then after WWII, they, with an incredibly powerful lobby in Washington, started to recieve billions of $s to build up a very impressive war machine, all the while spying on various countries, stealing technology, and carrying out assassinations and bombings meant to stir up trouble with the Arabs, by pointing the finger at them.

All while a bunch of olive tree-growing peasants were raped and murdered, their olive trees uprooted for Israeli citizens, their entire livelihood and homeland destroyed. They bulldozed towns, poisoned their wells, burned and pillaged their harvests, and even bragged about those towns being wiped from history forever.

Now that Israel has a foothold (And because the general public has such a short memory,) the conflict can easily be portrayed as somehow being something other than a one-sided massacre and wholesale ethnic cleansing.

Basically the Jews, unlike Hitler, managed to successfully and utterly PWN an entire group of once-peaceful farmers, all for the purpose of lebensraum.
Thanks for completely not answering the question.
 
I'm going to ignore your little Hambilism there.

You see, this is yet another tactic for Israel to steal more land.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/732528.html

The detention of Hamas parliamentarians in the early hours of Thursday morning had been planned several weeks ago

Let me repeat:

The detention of Hamas parliamentarians in the early hours of Thursday morning had been planned several weeks ago

This attack (The absurdity of tunneling Palestinians and all that goes to show how able the Israelis are in defying Occam's razor) is nothing more than for continued land-grabbing.

An Israeli soldier being kidnapped (The Israelis are also threatening to assassinate the Palestinian Prime Minister) is an excellent excuse to act like conquerers.

Israel warns: free soldier or PM dies


You're basically asking what's going on, and I'm telling you: Israel is a rogue state, and the greatest threat to world peace currently around.
 
Oh, I can go on and on:

Quotes by Israelis:
1. "There is a huge gap between us (Jews) and our enemies, not just in ability but in morality, culture, sanctity of life, and conscience. They are our neighbors here, but it seems as if at a distance of a few hundred meters away, there are people who do not belong to our continent, to our world, but actually belong to a different galaxy." Israeli president Moshe Katsav. The Jerusalem Post, May 10, 2001

2. "The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more".... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

3. " [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

4. "The Palestinians" would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls." " Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

5. "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle." Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

6. "How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

7. "There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed." Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

8. "The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June 1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.

9. David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

10. Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : "We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return." Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. "The old will die and the young will forget."

11. "We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.

12. "Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it." - Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, October 3, 2001, to Shimon Peres, as reported on Kol Yisrael radio. (Certainly the FBI's cover-up of the Israeli spy ring/phone tap scandal suggests that Mr. Sharon may not have been joking.)

13. "We declare openly that the Arabs have no right to settle on even one centimeter of Eretz Israel... Force is all they do or ever will understand. We shall use the ultimate force until the Palestinians come crawling to us on all fours." Rafael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defense Forces - Gad Becker, Yediot Ahronot 13 April 1983, New York Times 14 April 1983.

14. "We must do everything to ensure they [the Palestinian refugees] never do return" David Ben-Gurion, in his diary, 18 July 1948, quoted in Michael Bar Zohar's Ben-Gurion: the Armed Prophet, Prentice-Hall, 1967, p. 157.

15. "We should prepare to go over to the offensive. Our aim is to smash Lebanon, Trans-Jordan, and Syria. The weak point is Lebanon, for the Moslem regime is artificial and easy for us to undermine. We shall establish a Christian state there, and then we will smash the Arab Legion, eliminate Trans-Jordan; Syria will fall to us. We then bomb and move on and take Port Said, Alexandria and Sinai." David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

16. "We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"

17. "Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population." Moshe Dayan, address to the Technion, Haifa, reported in Haaretz, April 4, 1969.

18. "We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!'" Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

19. Rabin's description of the conquest of Lydda, after the completion of Plan Dalet. "We shall reduce the Arab population to a community of woodcutters and waiters" Uri Lubrani, PM Ben-Gurion's special adviser on Arab Affairs, 1960. From "The Arabs in Israel" by Sabri Jiryas.

20. "There are some who believe that the non-Jewish population, even in a high percentage, within our borders will be more effectively under our surveillance; and there are some who believe the contrary, i.e., that it is easier to carry out surveillance over the activities of a neighbor than over those of a tenant. tend to support the latter view and have an additional argument:...the need to sustain the character of the state which will henceforth be Jewish...with a non-Jewish minority limited to 15 percent. I had already reached this fundamental position as early as 1940 [and] it is entered in my diary." Joseph Weitz, head of the Jewish Agency's Colonization Department. From Israel: an Apartheid State by Uri Davis, p.5.

21. "Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them." Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

22. "It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

23. "Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine,Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

24. "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." -- Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994 [Source: N.Y. Times, Feb. 28, 1994, p. 1]

25. "We Jews, we are the destroyers and will remain the destroyers. Nothing you can do will meet our demands and needs. We will forever destroy because we want a world of our own." (You Gentiles, by Jewish Author Maurice Samuels, p. 155).

26. "We will have a world government whether you like it or not. The only question is whether that government will be achieved by conquest or consent." (Jewish Banker Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, as he testified before the U.S. Senate).

27. "We will establish ourselves in Palestine whether you like it or not...You can hasten our arrival or you can equally retard it. It is however better for you to help us so as to avoid our constructive powers being turned into a destructive power which will overthrow the world." (Chaim Weizmann, Published in "Judische Rundschau," No. 4, 1920)





United Nations condemnation of Israel:
Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians".
Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors".
Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility".
Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".
Resolution 509: " . . . 'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon".
Resolution 515: " . . . 'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in".
Resolution 517: " . . . 'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
Resolution 518: " . . . 'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon".
Resolution 520: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut".
Resolution 573: " . . . 'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters.
Resolution 587: " . . . 'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw".
Resolution 592: " . . . 'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops".
Resolution 605: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians.
Resolution 607: " . . . 'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Resolution 608: " . . . 'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians".
Resolution 636: " . . . 'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians.
Resolution 641: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 672: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount.
Resolution 673: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations.
Resolution 681: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 694: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return.
Resolution 726: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians.
Resolution 799: ". . . 'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.
More than half of the emergency meetings called for are to condemn Israel's actions. If it were North Korea acting up, people wouldn't bother asking the questions you are, Hambil, to understand the circumstances.

But how much more do you need??
 
I'm asking why they are doing this when it looked (from my outside perspective) like things where going much better than expected with Hamas in charge. A couple of weeks ago I actually thought the peace process might get back on track. Your answer is "they are evil". Okay, whatever.
 
Every single time some progressive happens in the peace process, Israel throws a monkey wrench in it. That's the situation.

The Palestinian government was ready to recognize Israel. Now, it's been decapitated. Tell me, what sort of behavior is Israel displaying for a country supposedly under terrible strain to protect its citizens?
 
Perhaps another helping?

Of course, Olmert's comment, and the deep-seated racism at the heart of Israeli politics that it appears to belie, can possibly be rationalised with the claim that it is not unreasonable that an Israeli PM would be more concerned about the lives of Israeli citizens than those of the Palestinian 'enemy'. After all, this is "war", is it not? Well, yes and no. Yes, if your definition of "war" is:

  • to dispossess an entire people from large parts of their land
  • shepherd them into refugee camps
  • exile others and refuse them a right to return
  • manipulate international opinion via the mainstream press and demonise the dispossessed people as terrorists when they resist your brutal measures against them
  • deprive them of any real means to resist yet when they do manage to strike back, portray them as being a greater source of evil than you
  • periodically murder them, including many children to an average of 600 per year and then lie about it and ensure that their suffering is played down in the international mainstream press.

Derived from all of this is the obvious fact that, if the Israeli government was truly only concerned with protecting Israeli citizens and bore no visceral, racist hatred towards Palestinians, then we would surely be much further along the road to a peaceful solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But it is hard to convince anyone that your primary goal is defence when:



  • your air force fires 1,000 missiles per week at a 7x30 mile strip of land (Gaza) that is home to over 1.4 million impoverished people (Palestinians), 50% of whom are under the age of 15.
  • 3012 Palestinian Civilians have been killed by Israeli Occupation Forces forces in the Occupied Palestinian Territories since the beginning of the Palestinian uprising (Intifada) in 2000.
  • 22,750 Palestinians have been wounded by Israeli Occupation Forces in the Gaza Strip and West Bank in the same period.

And all of this when:

  • in the same period approximately 700 Israeli civilians have been killed as a result of Palestinian attacks
  • during all of 2005, just six Israeli Occupation Forces were killed by Palestinian resistance fighters

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24304&hd=0&size=1&l=e
 
It's true whether or not you want to see it. If you don't believe me, how about you step away from your KKK blogs and ACTUALLY VISIT THE FUCKING COUNTRY.

Cunt!
 
SilentBtViolent said:
It's true whether or not you want to see it. If you don't believe me, how about you step away from your KKK blogs
LOL. If you're really serious about this then it shows what a fucking numpty you are in geopolitics. If not, good troll.

ACTUALLY VISIT THE FUCKING COUNTRY.
You have?
 
Tell me, what are your thoughts on the Harvard study which claims that the US puts Israel's interests above its own?

Or are they subject to KKK authority now?
 
Tell me, what are your thoughts on the Harvard study which claims that the US puts Israel's interests above its own?

Or are they subject to KKK authority now?
 
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