The Uses of Poverty: The Poor Pay All.

[The Dork Lord]

This article really pissed me off, mostly because it's completely true.

Eleventh, the poor, being powerless, can be made to absorb the costs of change and growth in American society. During the nineteenth century, they did the backbreaking work that built the cities; today, they are pushed out of their neighborhoods to make room for "progress. Urban renewal projects to hold middle-class taxpayers in the city and expressways to enable suburbanites to commute downtown have typically been located in poor neighborhoods, since no other group will allow itself to be displaced. For the same reason, universities, hospitals, and civic centers also expand into land occupied by the poor. The major costs of the industrialization of agriculture have been borne by the poor, who are pushed off the land without recompense; and they have paid a large share of the human cost of the growth of American power overseas, for they have provided many of the foot soldiers for Vietnam and other wars.

This is the price of Capitalism: endless victimization of the have-nots.

 

[Colonel Kira's Left Tit]

Could be worse. Could be Soylent Green.

 

[The Dork Lord]

It's not far off...

 

[Sarek]

Well, thanks to George Bush and company, we can look forward to quite a few more strip malls, civic centers and express ways to dot the landscape!

 

[Colonel Kira's Left Tit]

To employ the poor people that might otherwise be turned into Soylent Green?

 

[Sarek]

Hell no.

The illegal immigrants will get preferential treatment. They work for less.

 

[The Dork Lord]

Until we deport them!

 

[eloisel]

This article really pissed me off, mostly because it's completely true.

This is the price of Capitalism: endless victimization of the have-nots.

I'm sorry, but who comes up with this tripe? Does it feed some core belief system?

Eleventh, the poor, being powerless, can be made to absorb the costs of change and growth in American society. During the nineteenth century, they did the backbreaking work that built the cities;

And during the 20th and 21st century construction workers were and are some of the highest paid employees in this country.

today, they are pushed out of their neighborhoods to make room for "progress. Urban renewal projects to hold middle-class taxpayers in the city and expressways to enable suburbanites to commute downtown have typically been located in poor neighborhoods, since no other group will allow itself to be displaced. For the same reason, universities, hospitals, and civic centers also expand into land occupied by the poor. The major costs of the industrialization of agriculture have been borne by the poor, who are pushed off the land without recompense;

Also BS. Owners of properties that are condemned and/or taken for public purpose get fair market value plus moving expenses and other incentives. I live in one of those neighborhoods near a hospital. All of us sincerely wish the hospital would expand into our neighborhood and buy us out. Our homes are older and not worth much but we have big lots so the property is.

and they have paid a large share of the human cost of the growth of American power overseas, for they have provided many of the foot soldiers for Vietnam and other wars.

So the men and women who are not "poor" but served their country are of no value? Vietnam was not a volunteer army - the poor and not poor were all called to serve. Even though the current army is volunteer, it is not made up entirely or even mostly of poor people. I know it is hard to imagine but some people actually want to serve the country in the military as much as some are attracted to the benefits.

You want to talk about victimization, talk about all the working taxpayers who carry the burden for the "poor" who often are not willing to work to support themselves. Or talk about the professional "poor" who take advantage of the system, again screwing the taxpayers.

 

[The Dork Lord]

I'm sorry, but who comes up with this tripe?

Herbert J. Gans now teaches at Columbia University.

Does it feed some core belief system?

Consequently, there may be some merit in applying functional analysis to poverty, in asking whether it also has positive functions that explain its persistence.

And during the 20th and 21st century construction workers were and are some of the highest paid employees in this country.

Compared to Fast food workers, sure; but compared to advertising executives?

Also BS. Owners of properties that are condemned and/or taken for public purpose get fair market value plus moving expenses and other incentives. I live in one of those neighborhoods near a hospital. All of us sincerely wish the hospital would expand into our neighborhood and buy us out. Our homes are older and not worth much but we have big lots so the property is.

OWNERS, sure. You think some slum lord gives a fuck about the people he's kicking out into the street? That's not who we're talking about.

So the men and women who are not "poor" but served their country are of no value? Vietnam was not a volunteer army - the poor and not poor were all called to serve. Even though the current army is volunteer, it is not made up entirely or even mostly of poor people. I know it is hard to imagine but some people actually want to serve the country in the military as much as some are attracted to the benefits.

Where do you think recruiters do the most business? In the slums, where potential recruits have no options? Or out in the hills, where Johnny got some European muscle car for his birthday?

As far as the draft goes, I wasn't around at the time, but the easiest ways out of it were to be in college, or flee to Canada, right? Neither option being easy for someone without adequate means.

You want to talk about victimization, talk about all the working taxpayers who carry the burden for the "poor" who often are not willing to work to support themselves. Or talk about the professional "poor" who take advantage of the system, again screwing the taxpayers.

Just because someone is below the poverty line doesn't mean they're not working. Just because someone isn't working doesn't mean they're not looking for work. Hell, I've known people who work 2 or 3 jobs, sometimes college too, and STILL can't make ends meet.

I myself had my family on food stamps when I was a Marine. It must be easy to look down on those less fortunate than yourself and write them off as "lazy". It's not so easy when you're hunting cans and bottles or selling your own blood (or worse) to put a little food in your (or your family's) mouth.

Thirteenth, the role of the poor in upholding conventional norms (see the fifth point, above) also has a significant political function. An economy based on the ideology of laissez faire requires a deprived population that is allegedly unwilling to work or that can be considered inferior because it must accept charity or welfare in order to survive. Not only does the alleged moral deviancy of the poor reduce the moral pressure on the present political economy to eliminate poverty but socialist alternatives can be made to look quite unattractive if those who will benefit most from them can be described as lazy, spendthrift, dishonest and promiscuous

Easy to justify a system that keeps one in power, and automatically discredits those harmed by it, no?

 

[eloisel]

And during the 20th and 21st century construction workers were and are some of the highest paid employees in this country.

Compared to Fast food workers, sure; but compared to advertising executives?

So you think everyone should be paid the same, regardless of the education, skills, risks, and ability to accept responsibilities required to do the different jobs? Good Gawd - it is bad enough I've been moved to Mexico while I was sleeping, now I'm in a Communistic Mexico!

Also BS. Owners of properties that are condemned and/or taken for public purpose get fair market value plus moving expenses and other incentives. I live in one of those neighborhoods near a hospital. All of us sincerely wish the hospital would expand into our neighborhood and buy us out. Our homes are older and not worth much but we have big lots so the property is.

OWNERS, sure. You think some slum lord gives a fuck about the people he's kicking out into the street? That's not who we're talking about.

Again, you haven't looked into it. For example, regarding the property taken for the Cowboys new stadium, the majority of them were renters in apartments and old houses. The renters received $5,000 plus moving money and other compensations and incentives.

So the men and women who are not "poor" but served their country are of no value? Vietnam was not a volunteer army - the poor and not poor were all called to serve. Even though the current army is volunteer, it is not made up entirely or even mostly of poor people. I know it is hard to imagine but some people actually want to serve the country in the military as much as some are attracted to the benefits.

Where do you think recruiters do the most business? In the slums, where potential recruits have no options? Or out in the hills, where Johnny got some European muscle car for his birthday?

It seems to me they are out recruiting wherever they can. There are recruitment offices in colleges, strip malls, big box malls and stores, in the mail, and advertising on TV.

As far as the draft goes, I wasn't around at the time, but the easiest ways out of it were to be in college, or flee to Canada, right? Neither option being easy for someone without adequate means.

My brother was drafted. Sorry, we weren't a dirt poor family. Boys that he went to school with were drafted also. They weren't dirt poor either. There were a few ways to be excused from service - conscientious objector, religious purposes, in college, health reasons, only son to carry on family name, etc. One could run to Canada. It doesn't cost that much to hitchhike across country, as many of those who decided to go to Canada instead of show up for duty did.

You want to talk about victimization, talk about all the working taxpayers who carry the burden for the "poor" who often are not willing to work to support themselves. Or talk about the professional "poor" who take advantage of the system, again screwing the taxpayers.

Just because someone is below the poverty line doesn't mean they're not working. Just because someone isn't working doesn't mean they're not looking for work. Hell, I've known people who work 2 or 3 jobs, sometimes college too, and STILL can't make ends meet.

I myself had my family on food stamps when I was a Marine. It must be easy to look down on those less fortunate than yourself and write them off as "lazy". It's not so easy when you're hunting cans and bottles or selling your own blood (or worse) to put a little food in your (or your family's) mouth.

I was a single mother for a very long time, working barely above minimum wage and not getting a dime in child support. I know very well what it is like to be fortunate to live on beans and hot dogs because I made a nickel too much to qualify for any kind of assistance period. I know what that is like while the people who lived next door to me - two adults with three children, each from different fathers, the adults never having worked a day in their lives despite being healthy enough to do so - lived on government assistance. Among the many benefits they received were food stamps. They cried poor mouth to me forever - could I take them someplace, could I loan them some money, they can't give their kids any Christmas presents. I had a bunch of gifts under my tree - my daughter was more into quantity than quality. So, I took some of the gifts I'd worked for, saved for, put on layaway, did even more without for to give to the neighbors to give their kids. I went over to the neighbors with the gifts and they were eating steak they paid for with Food Stamps while watching their big color TV they got from a charity. Then I went home and my daughter and I ate our hot dogs and beans and looked at our broken black and white TV we couldn't afford to fix or replace.

Just because you wish to romanticize the poor little below the poverty line people does not mean they aren't there because of their own actions or unwillingness to take action. No, I don't look down on poor people. I look down on people who make that their way of life because they'd rather suck off my teat than get up off their ass.

Thirteenth, the role of the poor in upholding conventional norms (see the fifth point, above) also has a significant political function. An economy based on the ideology of laissez faire requires a deprived population that is allegedly unwilling to work or that can be considered inferior because it must accept charity or welfare in order to survive. Not only does the alleged moral deviancy of the poor reduce the moral pressure on the present political economy to eliminate poverty but socialist alternatives can be made to look quite unattractive if those who will benefit most from them can be described as lazy, spendthrift, dishonest and promiscuous

Easy to justify a system that keeps one in power, and automatically discredits those harmed by it, no?

Easy to justify a system that makes those that work pay the way for those that won't.

 

[Sarek]

The Democrats are good at raising taxes.

The Republicans are good at raising the deficit.

Then the Democrats raise taxes to pay off the Deficit.

And then the Republicans go on a spending spree again.

Its a vicious circle.

 

[RobL]

Well, thanks to George Bush and company, we can look forward to quite a few more strip malls, civic centers and express ways to dot the landscape!

Those sons-of-bitches had better get started. I hate having to drive 20 minutes to go to my local Best Buy. Inconsiderate fuckers.

 

[Sarek]

Damn!

I got 3 of them within 10 minutes. One is in walking distance!

 

[The Dork Lord]

So you think everyone should be paid the same, regardless of the education, skills, risks, and ability to accept responsibilities required to do the different jobs? Good Gawd - it is bad enough I've been moved to Mexico while I was sleeping, now I'm in a Communistic Mexico!

Where did I say that? I don't agree with the current distribution of wages, but that doesn't mean I think everyone should be paid the same. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Again, you haven't looked into it. For example, regarding the property taken for the Cowboys new stadium, the majority of them were renters in apartments and old houses. The renters received $5,000 plus moving money and other compensations and incentives.

And this policy has been effect throughout American history? Keep in mind this article was written and researched in the 70's.

It seems to me they are out recruiting wherever they can. There are recruitment offices in colleges, strip malls, big box malls and stores, in the mail, and advertising on TV.

Sure they are. But ask yourself which economic demographic they have the most success in?

My brother was drafted. Sorry, we weren't a dirt poor family. Boys that he went to school with were drafted also. They weren't dirt poor either. There were a few ways to be excused from service - conscientious objector, religious purposes, in college, health reasons, only son to carry on family name, etc. One could run to Canada. It doesn't cost that much to hitchhike across country, as many of those who decided to go to Canada instead of show up for duty did.

It still seems to me the rich would be able to get out of fighting easier than anyone else, but I really don't feel like debating events that happened before I was born.

I was a single mother for a very long time, working barely above minimum wage and not getting a dime in child support. I know very well what it is like to be fortunate to live on beans and hot dogs because I made a nickel too much to qualify for any kind of assistance period. I know what that is like while the people who lived next door to me - two adults with three children, each from different fathers, the adults never having worked a day in their lives despite being healthy enough to do so - lived on government assistance. Among the many benefits they received were food stamps. They cried poor mouth to me forever - could I take them someplace, could I loan them some money, they can't give their kids any Christmas presents. I had a bunch of gifts under my tree - my daughter was more into quantity than quality. So, I took some of the gifts I'd worked for, saved for, put on layaway, did even more without for to give to the neighbors to give their kids. I went over to the neighbors with the gifts and they were eating steak they paid for with Food Stamps while watching their big color TV they got from a charity. Then I went home and my daughter and I ate our hot dogs and beans and looked at our broken black and white TV we couldn't afford to fix or replace.

Just because you wish to romanticize the poor little below the poverty line people does not mean they aren't there because of their own actions or unwillingness to take action. No, I don't look down on poor people. I look down on people who make that their way of life because they'd rather suck off my teat than get up off their ass.

I'm not romanticizing anyone. You've known a few poor people that happened to be lazy, and now want to apply that to everyone. That's called stereotyping.

Easy to justify a system that makes those that work pay the way for those that won't.

You're fighting science with rhetoric. It's nearly impossible to find a job these days, let alone one the applicant might actually be qualified for. I have 4 years office experience, and over a year security experience, yet the best I can find is temp work or fast food.

There's not enough jobs out there, and those that are aren't paying enough.

That's a simple fact.

 

[eloisel]

You're fighting science with rhetoric. It's nearly impossible to find a job these days, let alone one the applicant might actually be qualified for. I have 4 years office experience, and over a year security experience, yet the best I can find is temp work or fast food.

There's not enough jobs out there, and those that are aren't paying enough.

That's a simple fact.

So, I have to ask ... is it the fault of rich people that you aren't able to find a job in the place that you are doing what you know how to do? What public purpose is being served by that? Where is the strip mall going up because of it?

I understand the situation you are in. About 10 years ago my job went to Mexico - thank you NAFTA - I lost almost everything while I was unemployed for about a year. I've since recovered the set back but it was very hard having to start over again being over 40 with only a high school education. I'm sorry you find yourself in a hard place. All I can say is take every opportunity to learn something new and be willing to relocate. Fortunately for me I live in a big metroplex area so there are more jobs within a 30 mile drive from home. Fortunately for me my employer sent me to college. It wasn't overnight, but I'm in such a much better place than I was even before my previous job went to Mexico. What's that saying, "when one door closes another one opens." The trick is not to stand there staring at the closed door instead of looking around for the one that opened up.

 

[The Dork Lord]

The way it was explained it was like this:

POPE

KINGS

NOBLES

MERCHANTS

PEASENTS

The kings took power from the church and so on until the merchants ran the world.

Marx predicted the common people would eventually gain power, but I think it'll get a lot worse before it gets better.

As to the rest of your comments, I'm not giving up: I plan on getting back in school when I can; but once I get there, I won't forget where I came from.