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Why Discrimination and Racism can be a Good thing

One of the Great differences between the more recent waves of immigration into the West in general (and the USA in particular) and the ones of the past is that the USA and the West are now Politically Correct.

In the 1800's, the Irish were called "Beasts" and would be the "Ruin of the Nation". They were given a hard time, forced to work their way up from "The bottom". But because of this, they learned, they worked, and their children fit in with the larger society. The same can be said of later waves, Italians and even the Vietnamese of the 70's. All of these groups had a hard time of it, but it gave them incentive to become "Americans". Yes, these groups held on to some of the traditions of their past, there are celebrations and parades and maybe their grandparents would like to see their grandchildren settle down with a person of the same background...but if they don't, it's not the end of the world.

Even the Hispanic immigration wave is following this pattern, with the main difference of successive waves of NEW Latin-Americans coming to the USA. The Latin population that is several generations established have become very much "Americans", just as the Irish and Itallians and a dozen other groups before them.

However, now we have a new wave. Mostly from the Middle East, they come here for the economic advantage, but have no interest in becoming "American". They cling to their customs and old laws tenaciously, unwilling to change, to become "American". This is allowed in the name of being "sensitive". Their children, instead of becoming closer to the American and/or Western norm, are held apart, given special schools, and subject to a cultural law that is held apart from larger society. They are not encouraged to "contaminate" themselves with learning the language of the land, or of using it with their parents. There is outrage when a woman is told she needs to show her face for a Driver's licence photo. They expect an exception to the Law to be made, a law that existed before they came to this country.

If a group is unwilling to become a part of a new nation, then why do they seek to come to a land of customs they abhor and a society they think Evil? If I were traveling, much less LIVING, in their land, I'd try to respect local custom, my wife would be veiled not because I'd have given up my beliefs, but out of respect for the people who live there. If you don't want to live like a person of that nation, then don't move there permanently. If one doesn't intend to learn the language, then why go there?

The pressure to conform came through Ugly incidents, through discrimination and incidents that violated the Law in many cases, but they provided the incentive for the new groups to learn the law, to embrace it as protection, to learn the system and language and customs and to become American. In a few generations, their children are truly part of the society, thanks to that pressure.

Are we really doing a disservice to both our society AND to this new wave if Islamic immigrants by coddling them, by permitting this "sensitivity"? Is this new wave ever going to "fit in" if we don't force the issue?

-SB
 
You completely ignore the fact that Mexicans aren't white, don't see themselves as white and don't want to become white. Comparing them to the Irish and Italians is inappropriate.

This very Jewish notion of Muslims being the greatest threat and doing more damage than Latin American immigrants have already fuels this 'Politically Correct, Acceptable racism/intolerance' of Arabs and Muslims.
 
Mexicans aren't 'white', but most of the Hispanics I know who are American Born like American, like their lifestyle here, and consider themselves "American", although they still have a lot of connections with their roots. I'm all for clamping down in illegal immigration, but that's a different issue.

African-Americans, arguably the oldest immigrant wave (abet forced in many cases) don't want to be white either, but again the vast majority consider themselves "American", and they are very much a part of the American society.

There are exceptions to these rules, of course, but I'm talking the majority. I also believe that the majority of this latest wave are not integrating, their religion forbids it in many cases, and Western Society is coddling their isolation. Look at how the French Muslims are being largely allowed to continuously riot (yes, they are STILL burning cars, even if it's not news much anymore), because they are a larger and more unified minority than others.

For a secular state, there is ONE law, the state's. If a group cannot accept that, then they are dangerous to that secular state, for the desire is for a Theocracy tied to one religion.
 
Sadistic Bastard said:
Mexicans aren't 'white', but most of the Hispanics I know who are American Born like American, like their lifestyle here, and consider themselves "American", although they still have a lot of connections with their roots. I'm all for clamping down in illegal immigration, but that's a different issue.

African-Americans, arguably the oldest immigrant wave (abet forced in many cases) don't want to be white either, but again the vast majority consider themselves "American", and they are very much a part of the American society.

There are exceptions to these rules, of course, but I'm talking the majority.
Then you're wrong about the majority.

There's a lot of talk about the 'dangers' of Islam in America. What exactly has it done compared to what Mexicans and Africans have?
 
The Hispanic and African-American's don't largelly seek to hold themselves apart from society.

Re-read my opening paragraph or I'll stop taking you seriously.
 
Sadistic Bastard said:
The Hispanic and African-American's don't largelly seek to hold themselves apart from society.
Yes they do. Your personal examples are meaningless compared to things like Affirmative Action, PC blame whitey first, movements like Aztlan, and all the other institutions and mechanisms they benefit from, to detriment of white Americans.

Re-read my opening paragraph or I'll stop taking you seriously.
Which one?
 
Affirmative Action is a largely "white guilt" organization, most black people I know find it embarassing. It continues to exist because there's a lobby and PAC behind it, but it's being increasingly struck down.
Do you think anyone takes Aztlan seriously?

As for the opening, just to be safe you'd better read the entire thing. Take your time, if you run into trouble, let me know and I'll use smaller words.
 
Sadistic Bastard said:
Affirmative Action is a largely "white guilt" organization, most black people I know find it embarassing. It continues to exist because there's a lobby and PAC behind it, but it's being increasingly struck down.
Do you think anyone takes Aztlan seriously?
Again this 'most people you know' nonsense.

As for the opening, just to be safe you'd better read the entire thing. Take your time, if you run into trouble, let me know and I'll use smaller words.
Don't be a fucking cunt all of a sudden. I think just to entertain you (And myself), I'll come back later to smack down your horseshit of a theory.
 
(grin)

I know you have a brain, Messy, if I can get anyone else to think I'll be delighted.

I welcome your further debate, even if I think you are wrong.
 
First: Yes, the cult of tolerance has eroded all of the, shall we say, natural incentives for immigrants to integrate with American society. SB is entirely correct there.

Second: It started with illegal Mexican immigration, muslims are secondary beneficiaries. Messenger is right there.
 
That's a rosey colored spin on immigration.

I just recently saw a program in which Pakistani Muslims admitted that they only moved to the US because they could easily cheat the US government. They were not patriotic, they were money hungry.

As for Mexicans, or the more PC "Hispanics", I know you live in No.CA SB and you get your fair share of crop pickers up there so I'm sure you know about the culture to some degree. But coming from someone one county away from the border these people don't want to be Americans, they want to be Mexicans that make American money. If they wanted to be a part of the American fabric they would make more of an effort to learn the language and accept the American culture and they don't.
 
I have no problem with someone coming into the USA LEGALLY, working, paying taxes, and then going back to their country of origin when the job's done. If you want USA wages but remain foreign, then fine, get a green card and work permit, do the work, get hired on your merits, and do the job.

I'm talking people who bring their family over intending to gain SS benefits, who want to live and die here, but have no intention of becoming "American".

The Hispanic comments I made refer to multi-generational legal immigrants, not necessarily the current and ongoing waves of additional illegal immigration.

And the POINT is that maybe we need to not be so accommodating to other cultures when America has a culture of it's own.
One example among many: if you wish to vote, then you must be able to read English and cast your ballot in the language of the land. If you can't, then you can't vote. Same with Driver's licenses, lawsuits, etc. If a restaurant wants to advertise in a second or third language, no problem, that's a private business decision...but OFFICIAL business should be in the Language of the Land. If you are too stubborn to learn the customs and language, then you don't get to participate.

-SB
 
Laker_Girl said:
But coming from someone one county away from the border these people don't want to be Americans, they want to be Mexicans that make American money. If they wanted to be a part of the American fabric they would make more of an effort to learn the language and accept the American culture and they don't.

I agree with you on this, but whose fault is it that makes this situation possible in the first place.

Think about it, what if you had the opportunity to go to another wealthier country compared to your own and make a shitload of many compared to your standards without any sacrifice on your part; sacrifice meaning that you get to keep your language and cultural identity. Add to that fact that you can later go back home and spend all this money on your family, your projects again in your country. Well why not?

The original immigrants had no breaks, but they understood and accepted this willingly, because their children and future generations would have a much better and improved standard of living. Yes my family will lose out on all its backward customs, but we will become Americans, back in the day that actually meant something.
 
Sadistic Bastard said:
One example among many: if you wish to vote, then you must be able to read English and cast your ballot in the language of the land. If you can't, then you can't vote. Same with Driver's licenses, lawsuits, etc. If a restaurant wants to advertise in a second or third language, no problem, that's a private business decision...but OFFICIAL business should be in the Language of the Land. If you are too stubborn to learn the customs and language, then you don't get to participate.

-SB

And why hasn't English been made the official language of the USA? I happen to agree with you by the way, but I'd also say it depends on what part of the Land you are talking about. There are a lot of places where English is rarely spoken.


And the POINT is that maybe we need to not be so accommodating to other cultures when America has a culture of it's own.

OK, without taking into account the native cultures , which have been here the longest... every major city has segregated areas where cultures imported from other countries havent changed for at least 5 generations... as you pointed out.
Chinatown, Little Italy, Greek Festival, Germantown, Italian Club, Polish Club, Serbian Club, Burns Night, Highland games, and on and on. First generation adult Italians (or whoever) didn't learn the language in a few years. The kids did because the kids learned it on the streets and at school. First generation adult Italians moved into a neighborhood where everyone spoke Italian so they didn't have to learn it to conduct business.

There is no true one American culture, there are too many regional differences which probably started out as ethnic differences. Smalltown Ohio is different from smalltown Alabama is different from smalltown Kentucky is different from smalltown Idaho even if the residents are 99.9% white.

I know that doesn't address the Musslim issue at all. Although I did hear that Mexican women are converting to Islam at an alarming rate....

;)
mm
 
Sadistic Bastard said:
However, now we have a new wave. Mostly from the Middle East, they come here for the economic advantage, but have no interest in becoming "American". They cling to their customs and old laws tenaciously, unwilling to change, to become "American". This is allowed in the name of being "sensitive". Their children, instead of becoming closer to the American and/or Western norm, are held apart, given special schools, and subject to a cultural law that is held apart from larger society. They are not encouraged to "contaminate" themselves with learning the language of the land, or of using it with their parents. There is outrage when a woman is told she needs to show her face for a Driver's licence photo. They expect an exception to the Law to be made, a law that existed before they came to this country.

I just realized something. :D Change Middle East to Europe and economic advantage to something to do with religion and you could be talking about my Amish Brethern! :D

Do they get a pass on your "adapt to the American Culture " ideal because they're White Christains? Or because they're quaint and bus trips to Amish Country every week is keeping granny out of the Indian Casinos?

;)
mm
 
If I don't miss my guess, the Amish and Mennonite do learn English (even if they rarely speak it), and they don't vote. They also don't rely upon the US social security systems, preferring to "take care of their own".

Beyond exclusion from Military Service as Conscientious Objectors, I'm not aware of the Amish expecting exceptions to the law. They do not demand that their religious Laws extend to everyone around them, nor do the protest when they are denied privileges that conflict with their religious beliefs (i.e. the "veiled Driver's Licence" example).

If this were different, then there would be a problem.

Finally, Religious Freedom is a Secular, Legal value in our Bill of Rights. The problem with the more recent groups is that they not only demand (correctly) the right to practice their religion, but they demand MORE (and this is where they are incorrect) in that those who do not believe in what they believe must also comply with their religious law.

The Amish, as far as I know, do not require this. I don't mind if they pray for me and my sinful ways.
-SB
 
missmanners said:
Do they get a pass on your "adapt to the American Culture " ideal because they're White Christains? Or because they're quaint and bus trips to Amish Country every week is keeping granny out of the Indian Casinos?

They get a pass because they don't have a militant fringe that wants to claim the entire continent as their own, for example, nor do their beliefs apparently call for them to carry out a campaign of violent forced conversion on technology users.

EDIT: Same point SB just made, but restated and expanded for confusion's sake. :P
 
The Question said:
They get a pass because they don't have a militant fringe that wants to claim the entire continent as their own, for example, nor do their beliefs apparently call for them to carry out a campaign of violent forced conversion on technology users.


I thought those were Mac users!

:D
mm
 
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