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Why Neocons are making such a stink over Kerry "comment" *Graphic Images*

jack

The Legendary Troll King
perhaps they're smokescreening this:

...............Indictments, investigations and allegations of wrongdoing have helped put at least 15 Republican House seats in jeopardy, enough to swing control to the Democrats on Tuesday even before the larger issues of war, economic unease and President Bush are invoked.

With just five days left before Election Day, allegations are springing up like brushfires. Four GOP House seats have been tarred by lobbyist Jack Abramoff's influence-peddling scandal. Five have been adversely affected by then-Rep. Mark Foley's unseemly contacts with teenage male House pages. The remaining half a dozen or so could turn on controversies including offshore tax dodging, sexual misconduct and shady land deals.

Not since the House bank check-kiting scandal of the early 1990s have so many seats been affected by scandals, and not since the Abscam bribery cases of the 1970s have the charges been so serious. But this year's combination of breadth and severity may be unprecedented, suggested Julian E. Zelizer, a congressional historian at Boston University.

For more than a year, Democrats have tried to gain political advantage from what they called "a culture of corruption" in Republican-controlled Washington. Republican campaign officials insist the theme has not caught on with the public, but even they concede that many individual races have been hit hard.

"So many different kinds of scandals going on at the same time, that's pretty unique," Zelizer said. "There were scandals throughout the '70s, multiple scandals, but the number of stories now are almost overwhelming."

At least nine GOP seats have been affected by scandals and are highly vulnerable to Democratic takeover next week. Foley's abrupt resignation has jeopardized a Florida House district that had been on no one's radar screen. Under indictment and amid a swirl of ethics investigations, former House majority leader Tom DeLay (Tex.) resigned from Congress earlier this year, forcing Republicans to mount a long-shot write-in campaign for their chosen candidate. Rep. Robert W. Ney's guilty plea last month on corruption charges still hangs over the Ohio campaign of his would-be Republican successor, Joy Padgett, especially because Ney still has not resigned from Congress.

The GOP has all but abandoned longtime Rep. Curt Weldon (Pa.), as federal investigators examine charges that he steered lobbying contracts to his daughter. Weldon went on television yesterday with an ad featuring actors pleading, "Would you give a friend the benefit of the doubt? . . . Today, Curt Weldon needs our support."

Republican campaign strategists fear they have also lost the seat of Rep. Don Sherwood (Pa.), who has been dogged by the settlement of a lawsuit filed by a mistress who charged that Sherwood had throttled her.

Congress watchers once saw the swing seat of Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Ariz.) as a missed opportunity for Democrats. But now, as the U.S. attorney's office in Phoenix examines his role in a land deal for a business partner and political benefactor, Renzi's race with political neophyte Ellen Simon (D) has tightened.

Farther west, Rep. Jon Porter (R-Nev.) has had to contend with charges lodged last month by a longtime former aide, Jim Shepard, that the lawmaker made dozens of illegal fundraising calls from his congressional offices. And two reliably Republican districts in California are under assault by Democrats because Reps. Richard W. Pombo and John T. Doolittle have been linked to Abramoff, the lobbyist who pleaded guilty in January to fraud, tax evasion and conspiracy to bribe public officials.

Foley fallout
Beyond those nine jeopardized GOP seats, four other Republicans have been tainted by the Foley page scandal. Rep. Thomas M. Reynolds (N.Y.) chose to issue a public apology after he admitted that he had known about inappropriate contact between Foley and a former page this spring. Democrats have repeatedly hit Rep. Deborah Pryce (Ohio), the House Republican Conference chairman, for inaction on the Foley matter. And Democrats have tried to hold two former members of the Page Board, Reps. Sue W. Kelly (N.Y.) and Heather A. Wilson (N.M.), accountable for Foley's actions.

Meanwhile, new allegations continue to spring up. Vern Buchanan, a Republican running for the Florida seat vacated by Rep. Katherine Harris (R), was the target of local media reports this week detailing his use of business entities in Caribbean tax havens to reduce levies on his auto dealerships. The Albany Times Union published an article yesterday charging that the wife of Rep. John E. Sweeney (R-N.Y.) called police late last year to report that her husband was "knocking her around" during a late-night argument.

And Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.), who made his name pushing campaign finance changes and governance reforms, was confronted with media reports alleging that a 2003 trip to Qatar -- partly funded by a group loosely tied to Abramoff -- had not been properly disclosed.

"The corruption issue plays in two ways: It contributes to the sour mood of the country and to the low job approval of Congress, and it particularly plays in races directly touched by allegations of scandal," said Republican pollster Whit Ayers. "And in those races, it plays a significant role."

House Democrats have had to deal with investigations of their own, involving Reps. William J. Jefferson (La.), Alan B. Mollohan (W.Va.) and Jane Harman (Calif.), but none of those cases have put Democratic seats in jeopardy.

In the Senate, a federal inquiry into Sen. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.) and his ties to a nonprofit community agency that paid him more than $300,000 in rent while receiving millions of dollars in federal assistance has provided his Republican challenger with a strong issue and has kept that race close. But the seat of Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.) may be in even more jeopardy, primarily because of Burns's ties to Abramoff.

Will issue stick?
Recent polling suggests that the issue of corruption is beginning to stick. A CNN poll last month found that "half of all Americans believe most members of Congress are corrupt" and that "more than a third think their own representative is crooked."

And where the issue has hit directly, Democrats and their allies have been playing up charges to the hilt. Just yesterday, Christine Jennings, the Florida Democrat running for Harris's House seat, held a news conference to attack Buchanan's alleged offshore tax dodges.

Even the most peripheral contact with a scandal has not gone unnoticed. "Those that knew got to go," Albuquerque's Democratic mayor, Martin J. Chavez, thundered at a rally last month against New Mexico's Wilson, citing her role on the Page Board during Foley's misconduct. "Those that didn't know need to explain why they didn't."
 
Jack, word got back quick to the soldiers in Iraq about what John Kerry said about them. They don't like being called stupid and uneducated, which is a clear opinion that many Democrats/liberals/independently-thinking-moderates hold of our soldiers.

Well I got news for you, we American soldiers are not victims of Bush, we're not suckers, and we're not uneducated. Don't blame us if John Kerry just cost your side the election.

-Ogami
 
Ogami said:
Jack, word got back quick to the soldiers in Iraq about what John Kerry said about them. They don't like being called stupid and uneducated, which is a clear opinion that many Democrats/liberals/independently-thinking-moderates hold of our soldiers.

Well I got news for you, we American soldiers are not victims of Bush, we're not suckers, and we're not uneducated. Don't blame us if John Kerry just cost your side the election.

-Ogami

Wow, reaching quite a bit aren't you Ogami?

First off, don't speak for all American soldiers. I know quite a few that are sick and tired of the constant deployments, the family separations and coming home to find out that the job they left is gone. And I think you're doing them a disservice by stating that they're all dumb enough to believe the spin the Republicans have put on this. You may believe it, but you're just another Republican programmed propaganda machine anyway. I think most soldiers are intelligent enough to understand by now what Kerry meant and where it was directed at.

Unlike the Republican party, there's still room in the military for individual free thought.

The Republicans have put a nice spin on Kerry's comment. But in the end it looks like the only one who's really going to suffer from it is Kerry. Not the Democratic party.

And by the looks of it, the Republicans have far more to worry about than putting a spin on some washed up senators loose lipped comment.
 
Sarek wrote:

Wow, reaching quite a bit aren't you Ogami?

Not at all. That picture is worth a thousand words, and judging by those soldiers (a lot of NCOs and brass in the picture BTW), they do not take kindly to Kerry's "joke". They did not need an army of Democrats to spin an explanation of what Kerry "really meant", they heard him loud and clear.

First off, don't speak for all American soldiers.

At the moment I'm speaking for myself and at least that squad of soldiers in the famous photograph.

As for whether YOU, Sarek, think you are stupid and uneducated, and you agree with Kerry, well then, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

I gladly distance myself from you, and hold your views in no higher esteem than I would self-proclaimed war hero Kerry's views either.

I just watched Rosie O'Donnell on The View this morning trash Bush by saying that at least Kerry served, and the whole audience of like-minded liberals exploded in applause (or they may have been independent deep thinkers like Sarek). Yet anyone who has been in the military knows that you cannot buy your way into a fighter jet, you're only strapped onto a jet if you have the goods, and no amount of connections will help you. Bush DID serve.

And as for Kerry, shooting a naked, unarmed Viet Cong kid in the back while he was fleeing does not make him a hero in my mind.

I know quite a few that are sick and tired of the constant deployments, the family separations and coming home to find out that the job they left is gone.

That's what us Reservists are for, to relieve the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a good feeling knowing that when you deploy that someone else gets to go home to their family. And vote Democrat, if they want. I don't mind.

And I think you're doing them a disservice by stating that they're all dumb enough to believe the spin the Republicans have put on this.

Spin? So you're saying this is not Kerry's view of American soldiers? He said it with regards to the Vietnam war. What have you read or heard from Kerry that has changed his estimation of American soldiers as the poor and uneducated? Play the tape, does this sound like a joke about the President to you? Is it a joke at all? Did the audience react as if it were a joke?

Unlike the Republican party, there's still room in the military for individual free thought.

Most soldiers vote Republican because of the record of Democrat presidents and Democrat congresses. It's a clear record of failure for the Democrats, whether it's soldiers being dragged through the streets in Somalia, or MONTHLY Vietnam casualties that match YEARLY Iraq casualties. The choice is clear.

The Republicans have put a nice spin on Kerry's comment. But in the end it looks like the only one who's really going to suffer from it is Kerry. Not the Democratic party.

You know if the purpose of the joke was to make fun of the intelligence of the president, how STUPID do you have to be to botch that up? Didn't Kerry just make a massive statement on his own lack of intellect? If you're going to joke about the president's intelligence, you better make sure you're not a thunderous moron yourself. Which Kerry, by even the kindest accounts, just proved.

-Ogami
 
Ogami said:
Sarek wrote:

Wow, reaching quite a bit aren't you Ogami?

Not at all. That picture is worth a thousand words, and judging by those soldiers (a lot of NCOs and brass in the picture BTW), they do not take kindly to Kerry's "joke". They did not need an army of Democrats to spin an explanation of what Kerry "really meant", they heard him loud and clear.

The pictures not worth shit. It just displays a few troops supporting our President. No surprise there. Every President has his supporters as well as his detractors. Only in this case, I’m sure that to the Republicans that would be a solid endorsement to make Bush King or some such shit

Ogami said:
First off, don't speak for all American soldiers.

At the moment I'm speaking for myself and at least that squad of soldiers in the famous photograph.

I was in Iraq in 03 when Bush visited. Do you know that they actually staged photo opportunities and instructed soldiers to look happy, look content, and to not show any sign of disagreement or dissatisfaction? It does happen; it is a tactic that is used for publicity purposes.

Now, I’m not saying the photo was staged, I don’t care. I don’t care if these guys support Bush 100 percent. They, along with any and everyone else are entitled to both their opinions and views. Something the Republicans seem to be unwilling to allow anyone who doesn’t agree with them.

Ogami said:
As for whether YOU, Sarek, think you are stupid and uneducated, and you agree with Kerry, well then, SPEAK FOR YOURSELF.

I don’t agree that Kerry’s comment was aimed at our troops. He’s said as much himself. I agree with his comment as directed at the President. Make sure you understand what I just said Ogami. There is a distinct difference.

Ogami said:
I gladly distance myself from you, and hold your views in no higher esteem than I would self-proclaimed war hero Kerry's views either.

Goody. I’m glad.

Ogami said:
I just watched Rosie O'Donnell

What you watch is your business. Did you actually hear the death cries of your brain cells?

Ogami said:
on The View this morning trash Bush by saying that at least Kerry served, and the whole audience of like-minded liberals exploded in applause (or they may have been independent deep thinkers like Sarek). Yet anyone who has been in the military knows that you cannot buy your way into a fighter jet, you're only strapped onto a jet if you have the goods, and no amount of connections will help you. Bush DID serve.

Wrong. Just like anywhere else, the military is just as subject to political and personal motivations as corporate America. You got the money, you can buy your way into almost any assignment. You have the ties, you can get away with murder. (I personally know a 1 star General who was diagnosed as a diabetic back in the 80’s. He was a fighter pilot and had an episode while in flight. They concealed his medical history and transferred him to another wing as the commander. Political connections got him his star and he retired 6 years ago. He should have been grounded and retired on a medical at the time of the incident. But he had friends who owed him favors. I also know an officer that was accused of multiple counts of inappropriate sexual conduct. The investigation was covered up and he was retired with full benefits. Again, political friends in high places.)

Ogami said:
And as for Kerry, shooting a naked, unarmed Viet Cong kid in the back while he was fleeing does not make him a hero in my mind.

I agree. I’m not too thrilled with the Republicans idea of heroes either though.

images1lr9.jpg

The sad thing is, if the American public wouldn’t have stood up and screamed about it, the Republicans would have been handing out Medals to the “soldiers” for committing those abuses.

Ogami said:
I know quite a few that are sick and tired of the constant deployments, the family separations and coming home to find out that the job they left is gone.

That's what us Reservists are for, to relieve the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan. It's a good feeling knowing that when you deploy that someone else gets to go home to their family. And vote Democrat, if they want. I don't mind.

I’ll remind my wife about that. She’s an Air Guard officer that was sent on a 3 month “relief” rotation.

She’s been there for 13 months now and is looking at another 6 to 12 months.

I also seriously question your “Reserve” service. You don’t seem to know a who lot about the Guard or Reserve mission which leads me believe you’re either full of shit or you didn’t survive past an initial enlistment. I’m thinking the latter myself. Your hatred for Democrats would make it pretty difficult to serve under one.

Ogami said:
And I think you're doing them a disservice by stating that they're all dumb enough to believe the spin the Republicans have put on this.

Spin? So you're saying this is not Kerry's view of American soldiers? He said it with regards to the Vietnam war. What have you read or heard from Kerry that has changed his estimation of American soldiers as the poor and uneducated? Play the tape, does this sound like a joke about the President to you? Is it a joke at all? Did the audience react as if it were a joke?

I haven't read anything about Kerry. I don't like the guy, never have. All I know is that he made a stupid comment and then he clarified the comment later. The Republicans are the ones that took the comment and twisted it to benefit themselves. Kerry is an idiot plain and simple. But so is Bush.

Ogami said:
Unlike the Republican party, there's still room in the military for individual free thought.

Most soldiers vote Republican because of the record of Democrat presidents and Democrat congresses. It's a clear record of failure for the Democrats, whether it's soldiers being dragged through the streets in Somalia, or MONTHLY Vietnam casualties that match YEARLY Iraq casualties. The choice is clear.

Bullshit. Stop pulling “statistics” out of your ass.

Ogami said:
The Republicans have put a nice spin on Kerry's comment. But in the end it looks like the only one who's really going to suffer from it is Kerry. Not the Democratic party.

You know if the purpose of the joke was to make fun of the intelligence of the president, how STUPID do you have to be to botch that up? Didn't Kerry just make a massive statement on his own lack of intellect? If you're going to joke about the president's intelligence, you better make sure you're not a thunderous moron yourself. Which Kerry, by even the kindest accounts, just proved.

How many times has Bush “screwed up” during a public speech? How many times did a joke he was trying to tell make him look like a joke for screwing it up? How often does Bush look like a complete moron when he addresses the public? Some people don’t have a knack for public speaking. In this case, Bush sucks ass as bad a Kerry does.
 
Christ. Curiosity got the better of me. Unfortunately.

I still say we should just drop the facade of having the moral high ground, and admit we're just as animalistic and brutal as any other country.
 
Those are your graphic pictures? Looks like a Madonna music video in every respect.

If humiliating and frightening terrorists saves the life of even one US soldier from a car bomb, roadside bombing, suicide bomber, or ambush, it will be worth it. And the fact that Traitorcrats think that Abu Ghraib or Gitmo were the most important aspects of the war on terror shows where their priorities lie, with the terrorists they love so much.

By the way, when Saddam ran those prisons, the electrodes to the car battery were real. Get your priorities straight, or offer your neck now to Al Queda and save them the trouble.

-Ogami
 
My "priorities" are straight.

As the most developed nation on the face of the earth, we expect American soldiers taken as prisoners of war to be treated a certain way and provided with certain "human" rights.

Although our soldiers often aren't shown those courtesies, we still preach the moral standards and condemn any country that treats its people and or prisoners in the manner that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were treated by members of our armed forces.

Yet, the Bush administration is blatently violating those standards time and time again. And when caught, make a minimal effort to "investigate" it and then try and justify it by saying it's vital to the war on terror.

All the while reminding everyone about our "higher moral standards".
 
Sarek wrote:

As the most developed nation on the face of the earth, we expect American soldiers taken as prisoners of war to be treated a certain way and provided with certain "human" rights.

Because we wear UNIFORMS identifying us as soldiers, combatants. Our soldiers RISK THEIR LIVES every day in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere by having the courage to wear a uniform with an AMERICAN FLAG on it while our enemies hide in civilian clothes in plain sight!

Although our soldiers often aren't shown those courtesies, we still preach the moral standards and condemn any country that treats its people and or prisoners in the manner that the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were treated by members of our armed forces.

German soldiers who attacked while OUT OF UNIFORM during WWII were executed on the spot. Unless islamic terrorists wear a uniform with a label that says "Hello my name is Habib, I am a soldier of Al Queda", then they have only the rights we assign to them. They're not being shot on sight, which is how anyone disguising themselves as guerillas within the civilian population were dealt with in any other war. Instead of bitching about prisoners being degraded, you should be thanking the immense MORALITY and HUMANITY of the American soldiers for not executing these cowards the moment they are captured.

It must take tremendous discipline for these soldiers to take prisoner enemy combatants who only moments before were killing their friends, and then intending to melt away into the crowd wearing the clothes of civilians. I am in awe of the American soldiers! They are not war criminals, they are not torturers, they are decent people. They're not victims of neocons, they're professionals. And whatever these enemy combatants are subjected to pales in comparison to what our own soldiers go through in basic training, or ranger school, or SEAL Underwater Demolitions training, or anything else our own soldiers are subjected to.

Yet, the Bush administration is blatently violating those standards time and time again. And when caught, make a minimal effort to "investigate" it and then try and justify it by saying it's vital to the war on terror.

Again, those standards are crystal clear when dealing with enemy combatants captured in uniform, as specified by the Geneva conventions. Our enemy doesn't want to fight by our rules, yet we still treat them far better than they treat our prisoners. Because we know what happens to them. Yet I see not a word from Sarek on how our own soldiers are treated when they are captured by the enemy. I can assure you they are not humiliated before an enemy female soldier. They get their heads cut off with dull knives, and indeed, the foulest tortures that a human mind can devise.

But again, don't take my word for it. Here is what Sarek is defending, here is what Sarek is excusing. What use is your high moral horse if you and your horse are missing your heads???

U.S. soldiers' bodies mutilated, booby-trapped
Wednesday, June 21, 2006; Posted: 4:25 a.m. EDT (08:25 GMT)

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The bodies of two U.S. soldiers found in Iraq Monday night were mutilated and booby-trapped, military sources said Tuesday.

Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, Texas, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Oregon, went missing after a Friday attack on a traffic control checkpoint in Yusufiya, 12 miles (20 kilometers) south of Baghdad.

The sources said the two men had suffered severe trauma.

The bodies also had been desecrated and a visual identification was impossible -- part of the reason DNA testing was being conducted to verify their identities, the sources said.

A tip from Iraqi civilians led officials to the bodies, military sources told CNN. The discovery was made about 7:30 p.m. Monday.

Not only were the bodies booby-trapped, but homemade bombs also lined the road leading to the victims, an apparent effort to complicate recovery efforts and target recovery teams, the sources said.

It took troops 12 hours to clear the area of roadside bombs. One of the bombs exploded, but there were no injuries.

The bodies were found in the Yusufiya area, said U.S. military spokesman Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, adding he believed the soldiers were mortally wounded, then moved.

It was unclear whether he meant the wounds were suffered in the initial attack on a checkpoint or afterward. "Where we found them was not based on their own movements," Caldwell said.

The soldiers' families have been notified of the developments, he said.

The bodies were transferred to a coalition base and were to be taken to the United States for DNA testing.

A high-ranking official with the Iraqi defense ministry earlier offered a conflicting account, telling CNN the soldiers' bodies were found Saturday in Jurf al-Sakhar town about 50 miles (80 kilometers) south of Baghdad.

Group claims killings
A claim posted on a Web site Tuesday said the soldiers were "slaughtered" in accordance with "God's will."

"We announce the good news to our Islamic nation that we executed God's will and slaughtered the two crusader animals we had in captivity," said the claim, reportedly from the Mujahedeen Shura Council, a group linked to al Qaeda.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/06/20/soldiers.missing/index.html
 
^Nice Republican spin Ogami! LOL! Make it sound like I said something I didn’t.

I'm not defending the actions of the enemy at all. I'm just condemning our administration for not living up to, supporting or abiding by the "higher moral and ethical standards" that the Republicans have touted for years and we expect and demand from other nations.

And by the way, not all military operations carried out by US soldiers are carried out wearing a uniform. We set up a temporary base in Northern Iraq wearing native garb and civilian clothing. Special Forces and Special Ops have been crawling all over Iraq and Afghanistan wearing shawls and turbans. There were military personnel in Baghdad in 91 that infiltrated wearing civilian clothing, and I was involved in missions flown to both Bosnia in 91 and Kosovo in 99 where uniform wear was prohibited for security reasons.
I’ve also been in combat situations where wear of National identifiers on the uniform were prohibited.
 
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