Zionism

[Kefka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-8aTGnjHnI

Who is stereotyping and oversimplifying again?

Norman Finkelstein, the writer of the 'Holocaust Industry,' has something to say. It's an old debate, something which you will never see these days.

 

[Kefka]

HMM

 

[Ogami]

I'm wondering when the Arabs have ever attempted to meet the Israelis halfway on anything. All I ever read about is Israel oppressing arabs, yet the arabs certainly are no peacemongers. When will the arabs extend the olive branch?

 

[Kefka]

I'm wondering when the Arabs have ever attempted to meet the Israelis halfway on anything. All I ever read about is Israel oppressing arabs, yet the arabs certainly are no peacemongers. When will the arabs extend the olive branch?

Your rhetoric is rather poor, and quite fallacious. There have been many olive banches extended, many opportunities for peace. Then Israel either chooses that that's when the best time is to assassinate a political or religious leader (Or just an ebil-doer,) or the tanks roll into Palestine, or it suffers a terrorist attack (With quite a few being suspicious,) Just in the nick of time.

What did you think of the videos?

 

[Ogami]

Kefka, where are the Jewish communities that were through the Middle East in every arab country? They're all gone. They were forcibly expelled after the formation of the state of Israel.

What the Pope said about Islam appears to be borne out in modern times, there is certainly nothing tolerant in Islam of other religions. Quite the contrary.

And you, Kefka, are going to tell me the Jew's intolerance is worse because of what, they wear yarmulks on their heads? Please! Nothing compares to the intolerance of Islam. Heck, they're still in a holy war over what followers of Muhammed were the "most close" to him. Ridiculous!

 

[Kefka]

Kefka, where are the Jewish communities that were through the Middle East in every arab country? They're all gone. They were forcibly expelled after the formation of the state of Israel.

Not quite. There's an interesting read I have either saved somewhere, or a link to. It's the tale of an Iraqi Jew whose family was quite successful there (They had been goldsmiths for the Ottoman Empire, I believe). When Israel was first being created, numerous terrorist organizations sprang up.

I think I should point at that these we Jewish terrorist organizations, as people are more likely to infer that it was Arab reactionism.

These organizations committed numerous terrorist acts. There were promises to Jews about how better Israel was, or would be, compared to whatever Arab nation they were living in. Though the main thesis of this tale was of the discrimination in Israel against Sephardic Jews, the group which the author belonged to.

This is one example, yes, but it illustrates a picture which isn't quite black and white, and it isn't meant to imply that no Jews were expelled from Arab nations when the conflict got worse.

What the Pope said about Islam appears to be borne out in modern times, there is certainly nothing tolerant in Islam of other religions. Quite the contrary.

I don't see how Islam gets thrown into the mix that quickly. It would be foolish to deny that radical Islam has an influence on the conflict, yes, but it wouldn't have a foothold in the first place if Israel didn't commit the multitude of human rights abuses it has perpetrated throughout its inception.

And you, Kefka, are going to tell me the Jew's intolerance is worse because of what, they wear yarmulks on their heads? Please!

Jew's intolerence? Interesting concept, one rarely discussed.

This is one example off the top of my head:

Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organisations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=3989

There has been plenty of hooplah over the preservation of Israel as a Jewish state, and of maintaining the 'racial purity' of Jews living there, in Israel. This has nothing to do with rocket attacks on Israeli towns, yet the Palestinians are kicked out for both reasons, which is masked as 'self-defense, a right to defense, etc.'

Nothing compares to the intolerance of Islam. Heck, they're still in a holy war over what followers of Muhammed were the "most close" to him. Ridiculous!

Again, I don't see what Islam has to do with the current debate. Are you implying that Israel has a right to do whatever it pleases to the Arab world, because they are 'bad people' ?

 

[Ogami]

Every thread on this board about Israel has been about how it's all the Jews fault. That's ludicrous. The only thing the jews are at fault for is continued breathing.

 

[Kefka]

Every thread on this board about Israel has been about how it's all the Jews fault.

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean to say that the threads here imply all Jews are responsible for Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestine, the one they don't show on documentaries in the USSA?

These jews disagree with you, Ogami. Criticism of Israel is not criticism of Jews as a people.

That's ludicrous. The only thing the jews are at fault for is continued breathing.

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59819

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=63857

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62692

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62576

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=62582

http://www.trollkingdom.net/forum/showthread.php?t=59112

:shock:

Maybe you're right. They just might be responsible for all the trouble.

 

[Ogami]

Which is another way of saying you hate Israel, Zionists, and what those jews are doing, but you don't hate jews per se. Or at least, the Jews who publicly denounce Israel. I do believe that's what you're implying.

Wonderful wiggle room there. Like saying you support the American troops but oppose anything they're doing and assume they're all guilty of war crimes. But you suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure support them! Right.

Just because you believe your own doublespeak, don't expect me to.

-Ogami

 

[Kefka]

Which is another way of saying you hate Israel, Zionists, and what those jews are doing, but you don't hate jews per se. Or at least, the Jews who publicly denounce Israel. I do believe that's what you're implying.

That's one possible impression, but it's false. I dislike Jews who blindly support Israel, but that is limited because they recieve they same skewed information which your average 'merican recieves. I hate the murderous policies of Israel especially since my tax dollars fund them, and I despise Zionists because theirs is an ideology of 'we should have because we have suffered.'

Israel is a de facto military dictatorship. It's behavour, the actual one, not the perpetually innocent and benign image advertised of a nation trying to save itself from millions of Arab Muslims trying to drown Israelis in the sea, is far from deserving of such latitude given to it by the international community, or the aegis of the United States.

Wonderful wiggle room there. Like saying you support the American troops but oppose anything they're doing and assume they're all guilty of war crimes. But you suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure support them! Right.

Just because you believe your own doublespeak, don't expect me to.

-Ogami

It's not doublespeak. I believe myself to have approached the debate in a manner far more rational than your own. If you can take the time to disprove each one of my points and give me the chance to defend them, I shall offer the same 'courtesy,' which should go without saying in any civil debate.

 

[Kefka]

Hello?

 

[Tyrant]

I think you won the Internets.

 

[Ogami]

Do I always have to have the last word? There's no pleasing you people!

 

[Lord Raffles]

Kefka, where are the Jewish communities that were through the Middle East in every arab country? They're all gone. They were forcibly expelled after the formation of the state of Israel.

What the Pope said about Islam appears to be borne out in modern times, there is certainly nothing tolerant in Islam of other religions. Quite the contrary.

And you, Kefka, are going to tell me the Jew's intolerance is worse because of what, they wear yarmulks on their heads? Please! Nothing compares to the intolerance of Islam. Heck, they're still in a holy war over what followers of Muhammed were the "most close" to him. Ridiculous!

The Jew is always back in business. Jews carry a plague that threatens the very existance of all Civilization. The great composer Wagner had written; "The jew is the deamon behind the corruption of mankind". And this picture proves it:

Jewish home life reveals a remarkable lack of creativilability and cvilization. In plain language, Jewish homes are filthy and neglected. Jews are not at all poor, after decades of business they've acquired enough wealth to buy good homes. But they live for generations in the same bog ridden dwellings. Untroubled by their surroundings, they go on with their prayers.

The main part of so-called Jewish community life takes place in the street. Seldom are Jews found doing useful work, and when they are it often isn't voluntary; Jews aren't used to working, and don't like it either. Jews don't want to work, but barter. In the market place they are in their element.

It's not true that Jews are forced into trade because other professions are closed to them. On the contrary, they welcome trade eagerly because it suits their character and natural inclination.

 

[Tyrant]

Do I always have to have the last word? There's no pleasing you people!

Respond and address my post, or concede, failure.

 

[Ogami]

If you like. I just don't have to have the last word on every post to get by in life.

Kefka wrote:

That's one possible impression, but it's false. I dislike Jews who blindly support Israel, but that is limited because they recieve they same skewed information which your average 'merican recieves. I hate the murderous policies of Israel especially since my tax dollars fund them, and I despise Zionists because theirs is an ideology of 'we should have because we have suffered.'

Your tax dollars support every Israeli from being pushed into the ocean by their xenophobic, intolerant, racist neighbors. Why has every Jewish community been driven from every arab country all across the middle east? All across Africa? Because of muslim/arab intolerance.

Arab citizens of Israel have the right to worship their religion as they choose. When Yemen, Egypt, Algeria, Libya, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Oman, Jordan, Lebanon, U.A.E., and the rest do the same, you let us know!

Israel is a de facto military dictatorship. It's behavour, the actual one, not the perpetually innocent and benign image advertised of a nation trying to save itself from millions of Arab Muslims trying to drown Israelis in the sea, is far from deserving of such latitude given to it by the international community, or the aegis of the United States.

An arab has a multitude more rights in Israel's democracy than in any arab country in existence. That's sad, that's despicable, and it's rather silly for you to complain of Israel's militancy in comparison to their intolerant neighbors. Try opening up a Synogogue in a Muslim country, and see how far you get.

It's not doublespeak. I believe myself to have approached the debate in a manner far more rational than your own. If you can take the time to disprove each one of my points and give me the chance to defend them, I shall offer the same 'courtesy,' which should go without saying in any civil debate.

Your precise reaction to Israel and the Jews therein is the precise reaction of every arab country who drove out their Jewish populations, all the while protesting they don't hate the Jews, they were just protesting the actions of the Israeli government. That's lip service Kefka, and it's doublespeak. And it's an attitude you share with every arab dictatorship in existence.

-Ogami

 

[Ogami]

I guess I'd better answer Lord Raffles or Messenger will be deprived of my wit and wisdom. Raffles, I don't have anything against you, but the reason I don't chat with you is that I usually have no idea what to respond to.

The Jew is always back in business. Jews carry a plague that threatens the very existance of all Civilization. The great composer Wagner had written; "The jew is the deamon behind the corruption of mankind". And this picture proves it:

I read an article in Haaretz online where a Tel Aviv orchestra debated whether to play Wagner. It was eventually decided that the musicians would play the music, as music itself is enemy to no one, and they wanted to show even a posthumous anti-semite like Wagner that they were alive and well long after his death, and his stated desire to see them driven from his homeland.

Jewish home life reveals a remarkable lack of creativilability and cvilization. In plain language, Jewish homes are filthy and neglected. Jews are not at all poor, after decades of business they've acquired enough wealth to buy good homes. But they live for generations in the same bog ridden dwellings. Untroubled by their surroundings, they go on with their prayers.

I don't think there's anything specific about Jews that set them up for thousands of years of hatred in Europe. If there were similar amounts of black people in Europe historically instead of Jews, we'd be reading the same thing about black people. I think it's just the crudest response of an animal to hate that which is different, and then to blame the different for your own poverty or lack of success, whether as a people or a nation. We see it with many other peoples besides Jews, it's a natural human response to hate that which is different. But that's what we have intellects for, to respond beyond the fears of base instinct.

The main part of so-called Jewish community life takes place in the street. Seldom are Jews found doing useful work, and when they are it often isn't voluntary; Jews aren't used to working, and don't like it either. Jews don't want to work, but barter. In the market place they are in their element.

The majority of humans alive today live by barter. Western democracies are the exception, capitalism itself is an exception. I don't understand this statement at all, unless you're referring to Tom Hank's comedy routine on Saturday Night Live:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91ssabra.phtml

It's not true that Jews are forced into trade because other professions are closed to them. On the contrary, they welcome trade eagerly because it suits their character and natural inclination.

That's what the muslim world thought of Jews who were allowed to handle finances and be jewellers from Northern Africa to the lands of Persia. But even these communities within muslim strongholds were allowed to operate only under the most stringent of conditions. Rather than fight it, the Jews put up with it in these lands, at least until they were forcibly deported through much of the last century.

Here's just one example from one muslim country, Algeria. There is no similarity between what was done to these people and the Arab citizens of Israel who continue to worship and live as they please to this day:

1948 Jewish population: 140,000
2004: Less than 1001

Jewish settlement in present-day Algeria can be traced back to the first centuries of the Common Era. In the 14th century, with the deterioration of conditions in Spain, many Spanish Jews moved to Algeria. Among them were a number of outstanding scholars, including Rav Yitzchak ben Sheshet Perfet (the Ribash) and Rav Shimon ben Zemah Duran (the Rashbatz). After the French occupation of the country in 1830, Jews gradually adopted French culture and were granted French citizenship.2

On the eve of WWII, there were about 120,000 Jews in Algeria. In 1934, Muslims, incited by events in Nazi Germany, rampaged in Constantine, killing 25 Jews and injuring many more. Starting in 1940, under Vichy rule, Algerian Jews were persecuted socially and economically. The Jews averted total destruction through their initiative and participation in the resistance. Their resistance activities helped neutralize Algiers while the Americans landed in the country. In 1955 there were 140,000 Jews in Algeria.

After being granted independence in 1962, the Algerian government harassed the Jewish community and deprived Jews of their economic rights. As a result, almost 130,000 Algerian Jews immigrated to France. Since 1948, 25,681 Algerian Jews have immigrated to Israel.

Most of the remaining Jews live in Algiers, but there are individual Jews in Oran and Blida. Jews practice their religion freely, and Jewish community leaders are included in ceremonial state functions. There is no resident rabbi.3

In 1994, the terrorist Armed Islamic Group - GIA declared its intention to eliminate Jews from Algeria; thus far, no attacks have been reported against the Algerian Jewish community.4 Following the announcement, many Jews left Algeria and the single remaining synagogue was abandoned.5 All other synagogues had previously been taken over for use as mosques.

Notes
1David Singer,Ed., American Jewish Year Book 2004. NY: American Jewish Committee, 2004.
2World Jewish Congress, Jewish Communities of the World.
3Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 1991, (DC: Department of State, 1992), p. 1339.
4U.S. State Department Report on Human Rights Practices for 1997.
5 U.S. Department of State, 2000 Annual Report on International Religious Freedom, Released by the Bureau for Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor Washington, DC, September 5, 2000.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/algjews.html

 

[Sarek]

 

[Lord Raffles]

I guess I'd better answer Lord Raffles or Messenger will be deprived of my wit and wisdom. Raffles, I don't have anything against you, but the reason I don't chat with you is that I usually have no idea what to respond to.

The Jew is always back in business. Jews carry a plague that threatens the very existance of all Civilization. The great composer Wagner had written; "The jew is the deamon behind the corruption of mankind". And this picture proves it:

I read an article in Haaretz online where a Tel Aviv orchestra debated whether to play Wagner. It was eventually decided that the musicians would play the music, as music itself is enemy to no one, and they wanted to show even a posthumous anti-semite like Wagner that they were alive and well long after his death, and his stated desire to see them driven from his homeland.

Jewish home life reveals a remarkable lack of creativilability and cvilization. In plain language, Jewish homes are filthy and neglected. Jews are not at all poor, after decades of business they've acquired enough wealth to buy good homes. But they live for generations in the same bog ridden dwellings. Untroubled by their surroundings, they go on with their prayers.

I don't think there's anything specific about Jews that set them up for thousands of years of hatred in Europe. If there were similar amounts of black people in Europe historically instead of Jews, we'd be reading the same thing about black people. I think it's just the crudest response of an animal to hate that which is different, and then to blame the different for your own poverty or lack of success, whether as a people or a nation. We see it with many other peoples besides Jews, it's a natural human response to hate that which is different. But that's what we have intellects for, to respond beyond the fears of base instinct.

The main part of so-called Jewish community life takes place in the street. Seldom are Jews found doing useful work, and when they are it often isn't voluntary; Jews aren't used to working, and don't like it either. Jews don't want to work, but barter. In the market place they are in their element.

The majority of humans alive today live by barter. Western democracies are the exception, capitalism itself is an exception. I don't understand this statement at all, unless you're referring to Tom Hank's comedy routine on Saturday Night Live:

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/91/91ssabra.phtml

It's not true that Jews are forced into trade because other professions are closed to them. On the contrary, they welcome trade eagerly because it suits their character and natural inclination.

That's what the muslim world thought of Jews who were allowed to handle finances and be jewellers from Northern Africa to the lands of Persia. But even these communities within muslim strongholds were allowed to operate only under the most stringent of conditions. Rather than fight it, the Jews put up with it in these lands, at least until they were forcibly deported through much of the last century.

Here's just one example from one muslim country, Algeria. There is no similarity between what was done to these people and the Arab citizens of Israel who continue to worship and live as they please to this day:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/algjews.html

you didn't mention the photograph? For shame.

Raffles, I don't have anything against you, but the reason I don't chat with you is that I usually have no idea what to respond to.

Hehe...

 

[jack]

The reason I don't respond to him is because he's a hateful, ignorant asshat.