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Massive Israeli attacks [updated]
- Thread starter Caitriona
- Start date
The Question
Eternal
bad dog said:
And just as sad, we'll get The Big Guilt Trip if we don't waste more American lives and money where they don't belong.
The Question
Eternal
gprime said:
Oh, but it is. Israel attacks, imprisons and oppresses civilians as a matter of policy. I don't think Arabs see the difference, and I don't blame them.
Yes, you do.
And I say it's time to tag and bag the whole festering shithole.
The Question
Eternal
See, here's the thing -- North Korea actually could pose a clear and immediate threat to the well-being of American citizens. Mexico already does (and has for quite awhile now) posed a clear and immediate threat to the lives of Americans on and near its border, and the livelihoods of Americans far beyond that. So why is our government defending the interests of people who already get more of our help than any other country on Earth and don't need it (Israel) and people who just plain don't want it (Iraq)? Why the fuck are we the last in line for help and defense from the government we're forced to pay for?
Captain Jack
New member
In terms of Iraq, the answer would be oil.
In terms of Mexico, Bush doesn't care. Did you hear about the highway being constructed from Mexico across the US to Canada to form the "North American Union"? All done quietly right under US citizens noses.
If North Korea tries sending one of its missiles at the US, it will be shot down. If one gets through, N. Korea will become a wasteland if the US military brass has any balls.
In terms of Mexico, Bush doesn't care. Did you hear about the highway being constructed from Mexico across the US to Canada to form the "North American Union"? All done quietly right under US citizens noses.
If North Korea tries sending one of its missiles at the US, it will be shot down. If one gets through, N. Korea will become a wasteland if the US military brass has any balls.
The Question
Eternal
And before someone points out that we're "obligated" to defend Israel because it's the only democracy in the middle east:
I would suggest that it would need to actually be a democracy first.
Source -- Ha'aretz:
I would suggest that it would need to actually be a democracy first.
Source -- Ha'aretz:
Survey: Israel yet to grasp concept of democracyBy Mazal Mualem
More than half the Jewish population of Israel - 53 percent - is opposed to full equal rights for Israeli Arabs, according to a survey conducted last month by the Israel Democracy Institute.
The general conclusion of the survey, which is dubbed the "Israeli Democracy Survey" and will be conducted every year, is that Israel is basically a democracy in form more than in substance, and that it has yet to internalize fully the concept of democracy.
In examining various indicators concerning the state of democracy in the country, the survey takes into consideration various polls and comparisons with other democracies, and also measures changes in Israeli society over time, using both existing data and research conducted for this specific purpose. The results of the survey - conducted among 1,208 adults representing all sectors of Israel's population - will be announced next Thursday at a conference at the President's Residence in Jerusalem.
The survey focused on institutions, human rights and stability, and social cohesiveness. Each of these three elements were measured according to several indicators; a total of 31 indicators relating to the state of democracy in Israel were used.
The current survey discovered the lowest support in the last 20 years for the assertion that democracy is the best form of governance: Only 77 percent of the respondents supported this premise - as compared to 90 percent in 1999. Israel is also one of the only four countries of the 32 listed in the study, in which most of the public believes that "strong leaders can do more for the country than debates or legislation."
Prof. Asher Arian and Prof. David Nachmias, who conducted the survey, say that Israeli democracy is particularly vulnerable today because of the occupation, the intifada and the war on terror. Consequently, Israel scores relatively low on human rights and freedom of the press, which they say should be a warning sign. On freedom of the press, Israel scored 70 out of 100 - the minimum requirement for the press to be considered free. One of the reasons attributed to the dip in Israel's rating in this area, from 72 points in the mid-1990s, is the attitude of the authorities toward the foreign press since the onset of the intifada. In this respect, Israel is ahead of only Romania, South Africa, Argentina, Mexico and India.
Concerning discrimination against minorities, Israel scored 3 on a scale of 0-4, and thus belongs to the bottom third of the 28 countries covered in the survey. In human rights violations, Israel (including the territories) also scores very high, leading the list together with South Africa.
The only parameter in which Israel scored highest in a positive way regards the extent that political competition is open to everyone and enables governmental change. But the flipside of this achievement is frequent changes in the government and deep social rifts, reflecting instability and lack of social cohesiveness, according to the survey. Of 26 countries, only India beat Israel in terms of social gaps. Israel and Argentina share first place in the frequency of changes in governments - five in 10 years - and thus also share first place in terms of instability.
On the institutional front, Israel scored fairly well. It ranked sixth of 36 countries in terms of representativeness and political balance, but was only 22nd in terms of voter turnout, with a 68 percent turnout in 2003 elections as compared to 77 percent in 1996, for example. Distrust between individuals also ranked high compared to other countries.
A nonprofit organization, the Israel Democracy Institute aims to promote structural, political and economic reforms, to provide information and comparative research for the Knesset and government authorities, to serve as an advisory body for decision-makers and the general public, and to encourage public discourse about issues on the national agenda.
bad dog
RIP DOG.
The Question said:
Because we are fucking up,I dont think Israel should get one penny from the usa. If the jews were so smart and rich they would All move away from that tiny shithole. the county I live in is 1/6 the size of Israel.
If they want to fight over that toilet all by themselves and fight the muslims then let them.
Iraq is a money pit, I say call it done and bring the troops home ASAP.
Captain Jack
New member
Holy shit, it really must be the end times! I can actually somewhat agree with Bad Dog. I hope it never happens again...
The Question
Eternal
You're also right. Iraq wasn't our problem until our government decided to make it our problem -- guess whose problem they were before that.
I'm sure I'm playing right into the hands of morons like gprime by pointing it out, but I doubt any of the grownups here will disagree -- our government is nothing more than Israel's bitch.
I'm sure I'm playing right into the hands of morons like gprime by pointing it out, but I doubt any of the grownups here will disagree -- our government is nothing more than Israel's bitch.
The Question
Eternal
Ogami
New member
TheQuestion wrote:
And before someone points out that we're "obligated" to defend Israel because it's the only democracy in the middle east: I would suggest that it would need to actually be a democracy first.
That's no help, Israel is the only real ally we can count on in the region. No, it's not America, but at least they don't spend their time copulating with goats and sheep like the rest of the Middle East.
-Ogami
And before someone points out that we're "obligated" to defend Israel because it's the only democracy in the middle east: I would suggest that it would need to actually be a democracy first.
That's no help, Israel is the only real ally we can count on in the region. No, it's not America, but at least they don't spend their time copulating with goats and sheep like the rest of the Middle East.
-Ogami
gprime
New member
Ogami said:
Besides, even if the majority don't support rights for Israeli Arabs doesn't mean that the Israeli Arabs don't have full rights. Besides, by that logic, once desegregation began in the US, if the majority were upset about it, then we weren't a democracy. Opinion doesn't change whether or not a nation is a democracy.
Ogami
New member
Exactly! An Israeli Arab won't have his head cut off by the ruling Taliban/Ayatollahs/Dictator, either. Israel is the ONLY country where an Arab can speak his mind, write who he wants, write what he wants, or broadcast what he wants.
Try doing that in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even Afghanistan. (Oops, I was supposed to leave that last one out.)
Try doing that in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, or even Afghanistan. (Oops, I was supposed to leave that last one out.)
The Question
Eternal
gprime said:
No, the fact that the question is being raised means they don't have full rights.
Just because the law guarantees them full rights doesn't mean they actually have them.
Have a look.
Not at all. By that logic, we weren't a true democracy until the laws were changed to guarantee full rights to all citizens, and enforcement of those laws took effect.
No, it doesn't. But reality does.
The Question
Eternal
Ogami said:
No, he'll just have his home destroyed and his land seized, with no legal recourse whatsoever.
And be arrested for it, sure.
Worse than Israel, sure, but they don't make Israel any better either.
The Question
Eternal
Ogami said:
Um... count on for what, exactly?
Ogami
New member
The Question wrote:
No, he'll just have his home destroyed and his land seized, with no legal recourse whatsoever.
Please tell me you understand the difference between an Israeli Arab, who is a citizen of that country and who never left, and the Palestinian "refugees" who obeyed the order by the Arab armies to flee their homes and return once the hated Jews had been "driven into the sea". Those are the refugees represented by the PLO, and more recently, Hamas and Hezbollah.
Clear now?
And be arrested for it, sure.
Okay, I guess you really don't know the difference between the two groups of arabs. It's okay, a lot of people have loud opinions on topics they haven't researched. Here, I'll help with your ignorance:
No, he'll just have his home destroyed and his land seized, with no legal recourse whatsoever.
Please tell me you understand the difference between an Israeli Arab, who is a citizen of that country and who never left, and the Palestinian "refugees" who obeyed the order by the Arab armies to flee their homes and return once the hated Jews had been "driven into the sea". Those are the refugees represented by the PLO, and more recently, Hamas and Hezbollah.
Clear now?
And be arrested for it, sure.
Okay, I guess you really don't know the difference between the two groups of arabs. It's okay, a lot of people have loud opinions on topics they haven't researched. Here, I'll help with your ignorance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arab