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Sen. Larry Craig will resign from the Senate!
- Thread starter bad dog
- Start date
eloisel
Forever Empress E
Well, I'm not willing to give it up to a conviction on maybes instead of good solid evidence. Craig definitely should have left office for the single reason he should have sought legal advice and taken the thing to court instead of pleading guilty and paying the fine. So what if the undercover officer showed up in court and recounted his "evidence." Even a half-assed lawyer would have that crap thrown out. As much as I hate the GD ACLU, that is why we have to have that freaking nasty organization.
eloisel
Forever Empress E
Well, good. Craig finally got some good legal advice.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_go_co/craig_senate
IMHO, he should still leave office because he should have sought legal advice in the first place. He has been a policymaker for 27 years or so and should know that. At his age it is no crime to lose one's edge in sticky situations. It happens. That is why we groom successors, pass the torch and retire.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_go_co/craig_senate
IMHO, he should still leave office because he should have sought legal advice in the first place. He has been a policymaker for 27 years or so and should know that. At his age it is no crime to lose one's edge in sticky situations. It happens. That is why we groom successors, pass the torch and retire.
Laker_Girl
Mrs. Big Dick McGee
bad dog said:
I don't know why but this made me LOL.
Laker_Girl
Mrs. Big Dick McGee
Sarek said:
You've never been to Idaho I take it.
chucklemeister
Loveable fuzzball!
I used to work with a guy that would try and start conversations in the bathroom. I was like dude, we are men, we don't talk in the bathroom. We grunt, do our bidness and go on.
:roll:
:roll:
eloisel
Forever Empress E
I don't know that he did or didn't and the "evidence" doesn't make that clear to me. On one hand, we have an undercover officer stationed in a public restroom that he has reason to believe is frequented by men looking to engage in sexual activity with other men while in the restroom. That is his purpose and that is what he believes he will find there. On the other hand, we have an older man who comes in to the bathroom. For all I know, Craig expected to find a place to take a dump.jack said:
This is the evidence:
The undercover officer said Craig fidgeted with his hands while standing outside the stalls. Well, when I'm holding it in and the stalls are full, it is quite possible I'll be standing there fidgeting with my hands, my legs crossed at the knees, and some kind of weird "I've got to pee" look on my face.
The undercover officer said he could see Craigs eyes through the little slit between the door and the door jamb. Well, I've seen women accidentally look through that little slit in between the door and the jamb and make eye contact with me. I've done it myself. It wasn't trying to "peep," it was an accident. You really have to be self conscious and ever vigilant to never do it accidentally.
The undercover officer said Craig's foot touched his. Okay, now Craig said he spreads his legs wide when he sits on the pot so his pants don't drop down on the floor. I do that too. Craig also said he saw the officer move his foot next to him. That is a little weird, but it sounds like a set up too.
The undercover officer said Craig tapped his foot and that it is his experience that older men do that when they are soliciting sex in restrooms like this. I don't know about that. However, I've been known to whistle while I'm passing the time. What do you do while you're sitting there waiting for that little turd to let loose and come on out? I've also been known to take off my shoes and straighten my socks or stockings, then put my shoes back on and tap my foot back into my shoe. Oh, god, in some places in the world that would make me an old gay guy looking for sex.
The undercover officer said Craig rubbed the fingers of his left hand along the bottom of the divider wall between their stalls. Okay, Craig said he was picking up a piece of paper. Maybe, maybe not. However, even the officer acknowledged that Craig was sitting on the toilet while this was going on, which put Craig's right hand nearest the dividing stall wall. That is a nifty trick for an older guy to do that.
Then, if you listen to the tape, the officer is calling Craig a liar period. He tells Craig he can plead guilty to a misdemeanor, pay the fine and he is done with it or he can plead not guilty and the officer will show up in court and swear Craig solicited him.
Now, this is where Craig messed up - much like Clinton did when he said "I did not have sex with that woman." Just like Clinton should have said "It is none of your business," Craig should have told the officer, "I'll see you in court."
I can see why Craig would want this to disappear. Some years back there was a scandal about some senators having sex with young male interns. While Craig was crucified in the media, he was not one of those that was indicted or even under investigation.
My problem with this whole thing is circumstantial evidence put Craig in a situation where he is screwed or he is screwed. It is my understanding of the law that a person is innocent until proven guilty. It is also my understanding of the law that every person is allowed to have their say in court. The officer may have had reasonable suspicion to stop Craig, even to give him a ticket, but he had no business bullying Craig into believing his day in court would be in vain. If the officer was doing his job, he would have substantial evidence that would stand up in court - like an actual solicitation, exposure, something tangible or incontrovertible - instead of circumstantial evidence so that he would have to bully his victim into pleading guilty to a lesser fine so he could go on about his business.
Now, you say, so what? Well, what if the guy in that restroom was you? How would you like that little sex misdemeanor on your record? What would your family think about that? What about employers? What about when you apply for loans for a major purchase? How about when you enroll in college - even just to take a continuing ed class? What about when the nosy neighbor down the road runs your name through an internet site for $19.99 and discovers you are a bona fide convicted sex offender? Think the Homeowners Association will want you in the neighborhood? How do you think you will feel when you are on the list of guys to watch out for by the Neighborhood Watch gang? Or when you notice the little moms and dads steering their kids away from your house on Halloween because you are a nasty old man?
The police are here to protect and to serve, not to turn old men using the potty into criminals.
jack
The Legendary Troll King
Well, when you put it that way, I see your point.
Still, having a reason that's accidental for acting nervous outside the stall, making eye contact with the person in the stall (by accident) touching his foot while in the stall (by accident) putting his fingers under the stall wall (reaching for a piece of paper using the bottom of the stall), then pleading guilty is all a bit peculiar.
Still, having a reason that's accidental for acting nervous outside the stall, making eye contact with the person in the stall (by accident) touching his foot while in the stall (by accident) putting his fingers under the stall wall (reaching for a piece of paper using the bottom of the stall), then pleading guilty is all a bit peculiar.
jack
The Legendary Troll King
I don't think homosexuality should be criminal anyway. That's not the point here. The point is, Craig was a rabid homophobe, and enjoyed legislating hate, so it's only fitting that this should have happened to him, especially if he was soliciting for a bj.
But he didn't do anything criminal at all. Kind of like karma.
But he didn't do anything criminal at all. Kind of like karma.
eloisel
Forever Empress E
Actually, the point is what we are willing to sacrifice to "get" somebody that doesn't share our opinion. The karma is when we get "got" for the same damned thing we were so eager to convict someone else with.jack said:
Personally, I don't think homosexuality is a crime either. However, I think behavior in public places is a public concern.
Once, when I was a little kid, I was out in the woods on the edge of my neighborhood with some other kids from the neighborhood and my older brother. We came upon a group of young men in the high grass and my brother rushed us all away from there. I asked him what those guys were doing and he said they were playing leapfrog. I thought it mighty strange for those guys to be playing leapfrog naked in the high grass with chiggers and all out there, but, you know, different strokes for different folks.