Understanding Anti-Semitism: Why Do People Dislike Jews?

[jack]

Alright I read it all. I didn't see the video though.

In Feb of 2000 my little life changed during lunch we some dudes I worked with claimed we'd never been to the moon but that we'd pretended to so that the USSR would blow it's wad on space programs. I didn't' believe it. An hour later with the Internet at my fingertips I did. We've never been to the fucking moon. Never not for a moment. So anyway with that being said:

I as a non Jew will never be able to view the Holocaust the same way again. Jack and TJHairball you guys are defending your arguments with petty insults and ignoring a) legitimate logic and b) every logical principal The Question has put down basically. I don't blame you because you probably went into this certain of yourselves and though you aren't going to admit it for a second, now you're thinking. Now your like WTF if he's right? In terms of rational argument and sources The Question and Chardarnook have won my inclination. I'm not saying that I now believe it never happened but I now realize there is not only a huge amount of evidence for this to be possible, but motive as well. It's also clear as to why this is not openly debated; it's historically recorded as fact and if you mention otherwise you are a Witch. Torches - that kind of thing.

The thing that stands out to me about the U symbol nobody has hit on - it's a religion issue. While I understand we participate in freedom of religion, I do not feel in any way that the companies whose products are bearing the U have made any attempt beyond a subtle symbol whose meaning has escaped me my entire life up until today - to tell me this food has been blessed in the manner of the religion of Juddaism. I say again - I'm not Jewish. Does that mean I can't eat Jewish food? No, but wtf kind of argument is "so Jewish food isn't good enough for you?" I want goddamn Buddhist food. Show me the pickles with the secret Buddhism logo and those will be my pickles. Then I will show people and say "see these pickles? These fuckers are Buddhist!" (note that the only thing you guys are comparing this Kosher food to is Organic food and Organic isn't a even a religion. What about saying prayer in school argh!! If we all suddenly found out there were hidden crucifixes inside 98% of sneakers bought in the US and you suddenly tore up the tongue and THERE IT WAS! Wouldn't that seem fucked up? Sure it would! It should because it is fucked up. And I agree with Chardarnook here we are talking about a lot of money here. Billions of dollars. Going to the folks who hide tiny crucifixes in sneakers.

That's how I read all this anyway.

Ignorance of the obvious doesn't make it a "secret" proteon. There's never been any obfuscation about the symbols.

Are you even aware of what's in what you're buying? Clearly not.

 

[jack]

But I agree with you about the moon thing, Proteon. We've never been to the moon. Hubble should have already shown that, why I would have thought the very first thing we would have gotten when Hubble was hooked up was a pic of the little Flag in realtime. Another lie, similar to "Oswald Acted Alone" and "A Giant Jet Hit The Pentagon Without Leaving A Shred Of Physical Evidence In Broad Daylight", or the best one of all "Weapons Of Mass Destruction In Iraq As A Pretext For Invading The Country".

We can argue about lies all day, you just have to decide which one you want to discuss.

 

[The Question]

Ignorance of the obvious doesn't make it a "secret" proteon. There's never been any obfuscation about the symbols.

What's always been obvious is that the symbols were there -- what's never been obvious (to anyone who isn't Jewish and thus doesn't look for Kosher certification) is what they mean.

 

[jack]

What's always been obvious is that the symbols were there -- what's never been obvious (to anyone who isn't Jewish and thus doesn't look for Kosher certification) is what they mean.

Oh for sure. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Well, if I inferred it, my bad.

But I knew what Sodium Laureth Sulfate was in 7th Grade. And the difference between it, and sodium Laurel Sulfate, and Dan that's in so many products it would be nearly as disturbing as this revelation

 

[proteon]

Clearly Proteon is either confusing me with someone else, or not reading my posts.

Use of the word Clearly here indicates a rational fallacy. You might just as well have said "as anyone with a brain can clearly see, Proteon has no idea what he's talking about."

Ignorance of the obvious doesn't make it a "secret" proteon. There's never been any obfuscation about the symbols.

Methinks your use of the word "ignorance" is intended to make me feel ashamed for the fact that I've never heard of the U symbol. I wonder at what age you figured this all out for yourself or perhaps it was taught in elementary school? I've never seen that symbol, didn't hear about it in college, haven't run into it in any intellectual circles which I have inhabited over the years. Nay, for ALL intents and purposes I find the word "secret" to be fitting in every respect of the word.

I thought I'd made a point already about reason and sources vs. an emotional appeal.

Clearly someone isn't reading my posts.

Lastly I want to say that as a non Jew I don't' care whether a Rabbi is blessing each squirt of ketchup or the entire factory. I don't' give a good shit whether it costs a zillion dollars of a penny. I'm not Jewish. Don't bless my food and don't charge me for this blessing (which I don't' want) in secret.

 

[proteon]

Thread killer!

 

[The Question]

Oh for sure. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. Well, if I inferred it, my bad.

But I knew what Sodium Laureth Sulfate was in 7th Grade. And the difference between it, and sodium Laurel Sulfate, and Dan that's in so many products it would be nearly as disturbing as this revelation

Well, the fact is, Jack, that makes you to have been a rather extraordinary child. Most people don't know, because (much as with certain, ahem, historical events) they simply swallow what's handed to them (especially if it's handed to them by people they trust) without ever really thinking about it -- at least, until they're shown different.

And sometimes they won't or can't change their outlook even then.

On another note, I'm sure that you and I both know about the potential danger of "sugar-free" products (the possibility of MS-like symptoms induced by Aspartame) but up until a few years ago, not much of the general public did.

 

[Anubis]

If it's not, what prevents you from switching to non-kosher cheap-ass small-name generic brands?

Brand name products usually taste better. Nothing prevents me. I simply shouldn't have to.

So what?

The makers of generic brands can't reproduce Coca-cola's great taste.

(U) and (K) aren't even words.

Are you positive?

They don't represent words that you're unfamiliar with, either.

Yeah, because one day, I bothered to downloaded a little video. After watching it, I was left with many unanswered questions. Sure enough, I had little sigils all over the food in my kitchen.

This is the only reason I'm familiar with it. No one mentions the tax in the mainstream media (sans perhaps some obscure business sections). It's not taught about in public schools.

You try to say that any ignorance of the meaning of the symbols is the person's own damn fault for not having good "label-checking" habits, simultaneously proclaiming that most people DO know about the kosher tax on many of the products they purchase.

And - whether you care or not - it costs a very tiny fraction of a cent more to bring kosher products to market, which may or may not even be reflected in the price.

A tiny fraction of which cent? The cent in 98% of the population's own pockets? A fraction of each product purchased?

How could it not be reflected in the price? I wouldn't expect the companies to pay it out of the goodness in their hearts. If certification companies are non-profit, why don't they ask for donations from Jews, in order to pay for the costs of certification themselves?

Gross Oreo sales. Not any fee, not any cost, gross Oreo sales.

How much of each of those $s goes to non-profit organizations? How often do the rabbis come to reinspect? How many of the ingredients in each Oreo cookie must be certified as being kosher? I've seen probablies and likelyhoods on your part up to this point.

The kosher stamp is on most every product Americans buy, with some obvious exceptions. Seeing as how you've debated the issue until now, you'll probably say:

The stamp is on many brand-name products
Many Americans know of the kosher tax
Therefore, many Americans buying brand-name products are aware and do not care, and neither should you, Chadarnook.

In order for the packaged yogurt or marinade to be certified kosher, all its ingredients must be certified kosher; likewise, in order for the ingredients to be certified kosher, the enzymes that have mediated the creation of said ingredients must also be certified kosher. And in order for an enzyme to be certified kosher, that enzyme must keep kosher. [...]

In order for an enzyme to be certified kosher, the feed media for that enzyme must be "kosherish."

And what about the feed media for the feed media? It is a food chain of microscopic yet divine reticulation, leading back to the mother-of-all proteins, keeping kosherish in an aerated flask.
Frederick Kaufman, The secret ingredient: Keeping the world kosher, Harper's Magazine, January 2005, pp. 75-81, p. 80.

Kaufman refers to the metastasis as a "domino effect" [p. 77], which falls short of recognizing its rate of growth. That is, a domino knocks down a single other domino, which in turn knocks down another single domino, and so on. To mirror kosher certification, however, the first domino would have to knock down 20 other dominoes, and each of those would have to knock down 20 dominoes, and so on, a better description of which is "exponential" growth because as the exponent of 20, say, counts off the stages of kosher certification 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ..., the number of new ingredients needing to be certified at each stage goes 1, 20, 400, 8000, 160000, ..., as shown below:

20^0 = 1 A single new product needing to be certified
20^1 = 20 may have 20 ingredients, each needing to be certified.
20^2 = 400 Each of the above 20 ingredients may itself have 20 ingredients, making for an additional 400 ingredients needing to be certified,

20^3 = 8,000 and so on to 8,000 more needing to be certified at the next stage,
20^4 = 160,000 and so on exponentially.

This exponential growth can be understood not by imagining that a manufactuter purchases kosher certification in order to sell to kosher-observant Jews who make up one-tenth of one percent of the population, but only by realizing that the manufacturer purchases kosher certification to buy access to a cartel, to buy relaxation of a restraint of trade, and ultimately to acquire permission to sell to the 99.9% of all US-Canadian consumers who are not kosher-observant Jews.

http://www.ukar.org/martin/martin24.html

Dictionary.com defines "tax" with the following noun forms:
1. A contribution for the support of a government required of persons, groups, or businesses within the domain of that government. Nope, not levied by a government, not required of a group or person.
2. A fee or dues levied on the members of an organization to meet its expenses. Nope, not levied by an organization on its members.
3. A burdensome or excessive demand; a strain. A few thousandths of a cent or so on perhaps 10% of packaged products... not excessive, not burdensome, not a strain.
In legalese:
1 : to assess or determine judicially the amount of (costs of an action in court) Nothing to do with this, either.

Very clearly, it's not a tax.

Yes it is. Provide a source.




You've been pounding your fist constantly. You work like a propa machine, TJ. "But the cost is so small, why notice it?" "What's wrong with you? Just find something else to eat." "Everyone knows about the tax, anyone who isn't a Judeophobe, who doesn't avoid contact with Jews or something Judaic." "Pay no attention to the opportunistic person behind the curtain."

The problem is, you only come hear to argue, not to discuss. I don't believe jack has lost any argument, or he's trying to save face, or anything like that. He came as a person who was genuinely curious, and didn't dig himself into a ditch, like you.

You're method of aquiring knowledge and forumulating an opinion is all backwards. You don't just have an opinion or dismiss something because it's too out there and then look for facts to back up your opinion. This is a way of thinking which has helped every evil unknown to the public gain a foothold, somewhere. No one looks and believes the crackpot who points and says the sky is blue, when everyone has been convinced that up is down.



I can't help but display this image:

Who will pay for the Rabbi's trips to China to make sure any imported ingredients are kosher? How many will have to travel? Will they set up camp, or go back and forth?

No, kosher certification is not one of the signs of the apocalypse, TJ. It is most definitely a "lesser evil" when compared to others. However, it's been brought into the limelight in this thread. While you have not attempted to say "but there are worse things to worry about," I'm just preparing for the next volley of bullshit.


Here, have a shovel: keep digging.

 

[proteon]

What is the fucking symbol for secretly blessed and taxed Buddhist food!?!


Edit: Chardarnook that's quite the picture. Where the fuck did that come from?

Double Edit: http://www.sedin.org/propeng/fallacs.htm

There is a list of reasoning fallacies. I think TJ and Jack have broken just about all of them. I'm not trying to be a dick but if your not going to be reasonable the absolute least you could do is accept that and say "I'm arguing from the position of a value judgement".

 

[proteon]

Now that I have a few minutes to watch the original movie from the first post I have come to report the link has gone dead.

 

[Anubis]

The domain itself is down. This wouldn't be the first time. I don't know why myself, but I've seen enough DoS attacks against sites like those to assume foul play is involved.

I'm glad I saved a copy.

 

[The Question]

Nothing prevents me. I simply shouldn't have to.

There it is, in a nutshell. Kosher certification is the specific desire of a tiny minority of the market, to put it bluntly. If I want specialty food, I go to a specialty merchant. I know what I'm getting, I know what's involved.

It's no less reasonable to suggest that Jews go hunting high and low for Kosher food, where they can pay the extra cost (however small it might be) themselves as it is to suggest that us dumb, brutish goyim go hunting high and low for food that hasn't been processed under a religion which instills in its adherents undertones of ethnic supremacism and faith-based antipathy toward us.

 

[TJHairball]

Brand name products usually taste better. Nothing prevents me. I simply shouldn't have to.

And in my experience, certain small name brands taste better. But then, I have different tastes than do you.

Are you positive?

Yup. Letter, logo, or symbol. Not word.

Yeah, because one day, I bothered to downloaded a little video. After watching it, I was left with many unanswered questions. Sure enough, I had little sigils all over the food in my kitchen.

This is the only reason I'm familiar with it. No one mentions the tax in the mainstream media (sans perhaps some obscure business sections). It's not taught about in public schools.

You try to say that any ignorance of the meaning of the symbols is the person's own damn fault for not having good "label-checking" habits, simultaneously proclaiming that most people DO know about the kosher tax on many of the products they purchase.

I would think that most people do know, but then, I've always been surprised by the long arm of ignorance.

How could it not be reflected in the price? I wouldn't expect the companies to pay it out of the goodness in their hearts. If certification companies are non-profit, why don't they ask for donations from Jews, in order to pay for the costs of certification themselves?

A good question. Why not?

Perhaps that's been tried and didn't work. Perhaps they feel it works better this way.

How much of each of those $s goes to non-profit organizations? How often do the rabbis come to reinspect? How many of the ingredients in each Oreo cookie must be certified as being kosher? I've seen probablies and likelyhoods on your part up to this point.

Let's see, $5000 divided by $300 million... I get a sixthieth of one cent. If all thirteen ingredients are also being initially certified through separate certification processes (which, IIRC, isn't necessarily the case; the $5,000 usually applied directly to one product, rather than individual ingredients, with all sub-certifications being covered if within the same house) that's all the way up to ~1/42nd cent, which then drops to 1/210th cent every subsequent year.

The kosher stamp is on most every product Americans buy, with some obvious exceptions.

Every single source you've cited has placed the percentage of products that are kosher at most around 20% of the total. "Most" would mean more than half.

Seeing as how you've debated the issue until now, you'll probably say:

The stamp is on many brand-name products
Many Americans know of the kosher tax
Therefore, many Americans buying brand-name products are aware and do not care, and neither should you, Chadarnook.

A reasonable statement.

http://www.ukar.org/martin/martin24.html

An article which presumes a dramatic complexification of the actual food industry in order to try and multiply the figure into something that looks expensive.

Yes it is. Provide a source.

I just did. Provide a source demonstrating that this fits the definition of "tax."

The problem is, you only come hear to argue, not to discuss. I don't believe jack has lost any argument, or he's trying to save face, or anything like that. He came as a person who was genuinely curious, and didn't dig himself into a ditch, like you.

I come to argue whenever I see something baldly incorrect.

You're method of aquiring knowledge and forumulating an opinion is all backwards. You don't just have an opinion or dismiss something because it's too out there and then look for facts to back up your opinion. This is a way of thinking which has helped every evil unknown to the public gain a foothold, somewhere. No one looks and believes the crackpot who points and says the sky is blue, when everyone has been convinced that up is down.

Everybody always begins with an opinion. I look for facts to verify or falsify them.

In this case, every single fact has verified the impression I began with. The cold hard facts show very clearly what a load of inflated BS the hyperbole about a "kosher tax" is.

 

[The Question]

I would think that most people do know, but then, I've always been surprised by the long arm of ignorance.

You really think most people know about this? Who do you contend is telling "most people"?

Perhaps that's been tried and didn't work. Perhaps they feel it works better this way.

Then they should, by all rights, be shit out of luck. If you can't support your own desires, it's unethical in the extreme to slip the cost of your indulgence into the pockets of others without their knowledge and consent.

(sarcastic)Many Americans know of the kosher tax

A reasonable statement.

Then you won't mind reasoning it for us, will you?

 

[TJHairball]

""

You really think most people know about this? Who do you contend is telling "most people"?

"Mommy, what's that U mean?" "Well, Bobby, it means that it's kosher." "Mommy, what's kosher mean?" ...

Then they should, by all rights, be shit out of luck. If you can't support your own desires, it's unethical in the extreme to slip the cost of your indulgence into the pockets of others without their knowledge and consent.

Once again... this is a purely voluntary measure, which is not by any means concealed.

Then you won't mind reasoning it for us, will you?

The average American knows several hundred other people. Typically, this will include at least several Jews statistically, making it highly likely that the topic of kosher food has come up in conversation at least once in their life by the time they've reached adulthood.

At, we may mention, a bare minimum.

I'll state once again, of course, that we've looked at the definition of "tax" and kosher certification clearly doesn't qualify.

 

[The Question]

"Mommy, what's that U mean?" "Well, Bobby, it means that it's kosher." "Mommy, what's kosher mean?"

Yeah, I know lots of kids who are just fascinated by the tiny little symbols on the packaging of the food their parents are preparing. :gagh:

...Once again... this is a purely voluntary measure...

Really? Are there non-kosher versions of brand-name products sitting alongside the kosher versions? I haven't seen any. And it's only voluntary when the consumer is able to make an informed choice.

...which is not by any means concealed.

Neither is it by any means explicit. It isn't voluntary, because consumers are not informed at the point of sale.

The average American knows several hundred other people. Typically, this will include at least several Jews statistically, making it highly likely that the topic of kosher food has come up in conversation at least once in their life by the time they've reached adulthood.

Now calculate the odds that one of those Jewish persons will see the need to educate their non-Jewish friends on how to identify which foods are kosher.

I'll state once again, of course, that we've looked at the definition of "tax" and kosher certification clearly doesn't qualify.

I agree, it's not a tax -- it's an unethical imposition of one group's religious observance on another without the second group's consent.

 

[Anubis]

I've thought it over. It seems that exact figures are hard to find because they are not being made public. Interestingly enough, the Kosher Excise Tax seems to warrant 5 companies in New York City alone (2 in Brooklyn and Queens, one in Manhattan).

http://www.kashrut.com/agencies/

 

[Anubis]

Oops. I mean, "non-profit" religious organizations.

 

[The Question]

Cited and referenced article on Kosher Certification

List of Kosher Symbols by Country and Organization

 

[The Question]

Also, interesting note: the difference between markings on packaged food denoting that it's organic and the markings on packaged food denoting it's Kosher -- organic food is explicitly marked, where Kosher food has (as shown) these tiny little symbols on its packaging which are absolutely tiny most of the time, and almost universally cryptic to anyone who has never had reason to research the subject. (I'm sure TJ will jump in here and again claim that it's public knowledge, without bothering to demonstrate how it possibly can be.)

Why the difference? Producers of organic food are selling the fact that it's organic. They want people to spot the difference. Kosher status, on the other hand, is never well displayed, and never explicit -- with the hilarious exception of Vlasic "Kosher Dill" pickles -- hilarious because a visual examination of Vlasic's other products reveals that they are all kosher. Now, if advertising one of your products in particular as being kosher (and thereby implying that your other products aren't) isn't deceptive, I don't know what is.