HeroicFool Indefinitely Suspended...

[Captain Jack]

And, sometimes, people over react. It's interesting how some EI members have clung so tightly to the "law". We'll see what happens when their number is up. Personally, I am disappointed in this whole thing. I'm saddened that HF's own pride is getting in the way of rational judgement, and I'm sorry how EI has changed to the point where community compassion matters less. We all lose.

 

[Captain Jack]

I must say this though, Godeskian. You got balls. And I have more respect for you now than ever before. For you to stick your neck out here and post on the "evil" TK MB is a great thing. The fact that you are trying to keep an open dialogue here concerning matters of EI is very cool of you. I think you deserve credit where credit is due, that's all.

 

[HeroicFool]

At any given time there are more guests viewing this thread than members Gode. There are more people interested in this thing than maybe you think.

I know for a fact the staff from EI is glued to it.

As for the rest. I am quickly coming to a point in which I don't care. If the people in that thread over at EI are the example of what the place has become, then frankly I'm better off elsewhere. Why should I waste my time there if they don't appreciate me or what I have to say?

There are a few notable exceptions, of course, but they are few indeed. EI is certainly not even the Lisa Slipstream, it's progressed far beyond that even. It will never be the simple carefree place that the slipstream was in the beginning. You have all imposed upon yourselves a prison sentence, one dictated by the trolls attracted to EI because of your ever more ludicrous policies. In effect you all live in an over-regulated environment of fear just because a few trolls have shown up to spam or say mean things every once in awhile.

FFS, you let trolls determine how you as members of EI live...

Guess what? The trolls win.

Keep living in your rose colored world, for me it's lost it's appeal.

 

[Godeskian]

At any given time there are more guests viewing this thread than members Gode. There are more people interested in this thing than maybe you think.

Quite possibly, after all I can only speculate as to who the anonymous viewers are.

I know for a fact the staff from EI is glued to it.

Can't and won't speak for others, but I came here to try and resolve the problem, and yes to ask you if you'd contact the staff (that middle ground you've been insisting on). Unfortunately I seem to have failed at my desire.

What it comes down to for me, is that either you really don't care, and that will become evident by how much longer you are going to dissect posts made in the suspension thread, or you do care and won't consider returning even when asked, which would annoy me on at least a personal level as your one consistent point is how the staff haven't reached out a hand to you.

We'll, I've tried to do so, and no matter how gently, you have slapped me down for it.

Keep living in your rose colored world, for me it's lost it's appeal.

All in all, I'm going to miss you, and regret your decision not to try and fix this, but I do respect it as your decision to make. You aren't the first to leave Exisle, and I doubt you'll be the last as it is the nature of messageboards.

 

[Godeskian]

And, sometimes, people over react. It's interesting how some EI members have clung so tightly to the "law".

Unfortunately we run into a catch-22. When the staff had discretionary powers, everyone and their mother was complaining of moderator bias. Not a single decision was made without someone complaining that the moderator had overstepped his or her bounds, and that more specific rules were needed to insure everyone and every infraction possible got treated exactly the same way.

So at the members request we tried to make the rules ironclad, as much to protect the staff from accusations of abuse as to protect members from the aforementioned biased staff. Unfortunately, ironclad rules and a member-mandate to obey them has left us with the natural consequences thereoff.

I must say this though, Godeskian. You got balls. And I have more respect for you now than ever before. For you to stick your neck out here and post on the "evil" TK MB is a great thing. The fact that you are trying to keep an open dialogue here concerning matters of EI is very cool of you. I think you deserve credit where credit is due, that's all.

I appreciate the support. However I was informed I had critics here on TK, and I've always been a big believer in confronting my critics directly. Tends to resolve the problem one way or another.

As far as the open dialogue is concerned, I've said before (though possibly not on TK) that my personal pride has always come secondary to getting the job done. If HF wanted the staff to take notice of what he was posting here, I was willing to do that. If he wanted an explanation, then barring breaking the security of the lounge, I was willing to do that to, and if he wanted to be asked by staff to contact the admin account, then I was willing to do that as well.

I'm just not sure what else I can reasonably do here.

 

[HeroicFool]

OK, first of all I want to agree with A Karas here. I do appreciate you being the only staff member willing to come in here and actually discuss the issues Gode. I give respect where it's due and I return civility with the same. Notice I haven't been cussing at you or cutting you down. That's a sign of my esteem for your actions here. Thank you.

Now the problem I have really is with the admins in general and Orpheus in particular. I apprec iate your POV here Gode, but you're not really the one calling the shots on this I'd assume. You see me as slapping you down, but that's not really what I am after here. I wanted this resolved from the beginning, but the more I am attacked, belittled and accused at EI the angrier I become and the less likely I will ever contact those very people.

I have one interest in EI and one only... There are people over there I know and love and I wish to be able to interact with them again. Period. The rules over there are atrocious and the staff acting as if the rules were the ten commandments is reprehensible. There afre so many things wrong I don't think I should go in to all of them right now. But that was all outweighed by those few people that I enjoy being around and have enjoyed being around for years. I do care Gode, very much or I'd not have bothered being so damned adamant about this. The problem with bad rules and bad enforcement is that when you come crawling back on your knees begging for forgiveness, nothing gets better. No dialogue is had, no progress made, and the rules stay the same or even get progressively worse.

Much like that ridiculous incident where I made a rather innocent joke about you being a homo. I was taken to task by three moderators and an admin and one of the mods sent me a PM asking me to edit my post. FFS, what a load. A joke is a joke. A person playing around with people he considers friends should be able to mess with them a little bit. It's what friends do. Frankly I am surprised that I have to explain this to anyone, weren't any of you children at any point in your lives? Learn to relax and play again every once in awhile. Let that politically correct garbage you've been brainwashed with go for a few hours a day and actually enjoy yourselves.

How hard is that to understand?

If you're going to make a mistake as a board, make it on the side in which good old common sense prevails. You all were better off with the inconsistent or bias approach than you are today. At least it is grounded in reason and sense. If you know someone then why in the hell would you not factor in that knowledge when making a decision that effects them and the board? Going in half blind is no way to mete out justice. There will always be complaints when a decision is made on pretty much anything. Whether you re-invent Nazi Germany or have a hippy lovefest there is going to be some malcontent in the back that's going to want to give you some shit. The trick is to use your head, be as fair as you can be without ignoring the good sense that you were born with and for the love of god, don't sacrifice your freedom for a little security. As ole Ben baby said, you will end up with neither.

Allowing the bad element to dictate your policy is assinine. They walk away and laugh at you, and you are stuck living under the yolk of rules that don't make much sense when applied to a group of people that are supposed to be friends. You end up squabbling among yourselves about stupid rules instead of hanging out and having a good time...

Do you call that progress?

You have all been played, by the trolls of the past and by the fools that call for more rules instead of less.

I just do not understand how you all seem so incapable of seeing that.

 

[T'Bonz]

Unfortunately we run into a catch-22. When the staff had discretionary powers, everyone and their mother was complaining of moderator bias. Not a single decision was made without someone complaining that the moderator had overstepped his or her bounds, and that more specific rules were needed to insure everyone and every infraction possible got treated exactly the same way.

**wry smile**

Been there.

Here's a thought. No matter WHAT you do, someone will always be displeased and shout "bias."

You'll never eliminate that. What you SHOULD be doing instead of tightening up is eliminating the bias you do have and then not worrying about it anymore. Trying to make the rules tighter doesn't fix a place, people just exploit the new loopholes and look for more specific rules for each circumstance. It makes the regular people unhappy and doesn't fix the problem.

What you guys should be doing is relaxing a bit. Give people a fair chance. Don't let a minority of kvetchers make you become more and more rigid.

It's easy to add rules. But as we found out, it doesn't work. We're at the point now where we are very resistant to adding new rules. Because you simply cannot make a rule for every contingency. And it sucks the life out of a place.

Sometimes you have to just accept that some will always be dissatisfied. But from someone else running a raucous board, my advice is to loosen the reins a bit.

And take care that your mods aren't openly favoring those they like. That will piss people off faster than tight rules. Don't let them favor people openly, don't let them get into a circle the wagons mentality and don't let them get into a group gossip about posters. Of course, you should have learned that latter lesson from the last debacle. I sure did.

And since I'm here....Foolie....why don't you just drop your damned pride and just EMAIL them? What is the worse that will happen? They say "Fuck you, we don't want you?"

If that happens, you then have the higher ground and can say "I did what they told me, followed their procedure and they're still being unreasonable." And everyone will see that. Instead, you're coming off as "I want it my way" and in that case, they get the high moral ground.

It's your call. But if it were me, I'd rather have them on the defensive than have myself on the defensive. That's if you're serious about rejoining and not just having a bit of fun at their expense.

 

[missmanners]

^And deprive us of some of the best drama in months?


mm

 

[Captain Jack]

What drama? This whole thing just gets more and more stupid. Just email the staff and get it over with. Otherwise, you'll never get back in. EI doesn't put up with any sort of BS anymore.

 

[Godeskian]

OK, first of all I want to agree with A Karas here. I do appreciate you being the only staff member willing to come in here and actually discuss the issues Gode. I give respect where it's due and I return civility with the same. Notice I haven't been cussing at you or cutting you down. That's a sign of my esteem for your actions here. Thank you.

Certes always HF.

I appreciate your POV here Gode, but you're not really the one calling the shots on this I'd assume. You see me as slapping you down, but that's not really what I am after here. I wanted this resolved from the beginning, but the more I am attacked, belittled and accused at EI the angrier I become and the less likely I will ever contact those very people.

You're right, I'm not the one calling the shots at Exisle. I'm not Rov, who is to be honest the only one entitled to throw his weight around (not unlike Seraphim, but that's another story) Having said that, don't you see that the longer you tand on your pride, and insist that it's done your way or not at all, the more people over on Exisle will wonder why you won't come and talk to the admins?

You are entering a place where people are wondering if maybe you're trying to hide something, or maybe you really did do something malicious, because pride has it's place (i suppose) but this isn't some deep seated philosophical issue, it's a messageboard.

I'll ask once more, and then I'm afraid I'll probably give up because I'm not actually getting anywhere, despite my best efforts.

Email the admins, get this sorted. Accept that sometimes shit happens, and be the guy who is willing to come and talk to the admins. Hell, I'm giving you the perfect opening here by asking you to contact them.

Because honestly, Exisle survived your two year absense, and sooner or later some other event will push your thread out of AGQ, and the board will go back to remembering you, if at all, as one of the Exisle's missing. I don't think you want that, hell I don't want that, but I'm also very much at the end of my options.

If you're waiting for Orpheus to sign up on TK and talk to you, You have a long wait ahead, because that just isn't going to happen. Be the bigger man, and break this logjam.

The rules over there are atrocious and the staff acting as if the rules were the ten commandments is reprehensible.

Unfortunately those are as much a matter of circumstance as intent, and every time the guidelines come up for revision they get passed sooner or later. You might not like them, but the majority of EI posters do. What's more, if you really want to see the system change into something more of your liking, you aren't going to succeed while being unable to post.

I do care Gode, very much or I'd not have bothered being so damned adamant about this. The problem with bad rules and bad enforcement is that when you come crawling back on your knees begging for forgiveness, nothing gets better. No dialogue is had, no progress made, and the rules stay the same or even get progressively worse.

When does adamance become obstinance? And again you won't succeed in changing anything from TK.

Much like that ridiculous incident where I made a rather innocent joke about you being a homo.

I should probably apologise for overreacting there, but again the rules say no personal potshots. Rightly or wrongly, that's what they say.

If you know someone then why in the hell would you not factor in that knowledge when making a decision that effects them and the board?

You weren't here for the A-List wars were you?

Do you call that progress?

Progress is a meaningless concept anyway, but I take your point.

Look, I think we're at something of an impasse here. You've staked your claim, and I am genuinely out of ways to try and convince you to get this sorted. I respect that you've staked out a position and won't change it, but what makes you think the other side doesn't feel the same way.

Someone has to be the first to break the logjam, and it is neither a sign of weakness nor of failure to uphold ones principles. To paraphrase Delenn, 'You started a war, we have ended it, that does not mean we have given up our basic rights'

 

[Godeskian]

**wry smile**

Been there.

Here's a thought. No matter WHAT you do, someone will always be displeased and shout "bias."

You'll never eliminate that. What you SHOULD be doing instead of tightening up is eliminating the bias you do have and then not worrying about it anymore. Trying to make the rules tighter doesn't fix a place, people just exploit the new loopholes and look for more specific rules for each circumstance. It makes the regular people unhappy and doesn't fix the problem.

What you guys should be doing is relaxing a bit. Give people a fair chance. Don't let a minority of kvetchers make you become more and more rigid.

It's easy to add rules. But as we found out, it doesn't work. We're at the point now where we are very resistant to adding new rules. Because you simply cannot make a rule for every contingency. And it sucks the life out of a place.

Sometimes you have to just accept that some will always be dissatisfied. But from someone else running a raucous board, my advice is to loosen the reins a bit.

And take care that your mods aren't openly favoring those they like. That will piss people off faster than tight rules. Don't let them favor people openly, don't let them get into a circle the wagons mentality and don't let them get into a group gossip about posters. Of course, you should have learned that latter lesson from the last debacle. I sure did.

Mind if I quote you T?

 

[Godeskian]

And with that, I think I've said everything I reasonably can on this topic.

I'll confess, I've been pleasantly surprised. This was a perfectly civil discussion, not at all what I was expecting.

 

[Mandi]

EI makes my head hurt!

 

[Captain Jack]

And with that, I think I've said everything I reasonably can on this topic.

I'll confess, I've been pleasantly surprised. This was a perfectly civil discussion, not at all what I was expecting.

Kind of a nice change for once, eh my friend.

 

[HeroicFool]

Heh, well there's ranting and there's reasoned discourse. I prefer the latter, but sometimes that's not possible.

Such as when certain people won't come to the table to discuss things nicely.

Bonz, that was a great post. I will consider it carefully.

I just wish EI would do the same

 

[Captain Jack]

E-I-E-I-O

 

[RobL]

I'll confess, I've been pleasantly surprised. This was a perfectly civil discussion, not at all what I was expecting.

So.........what? You thought we were a bunch of Neanderthals? That's rather comforting.

Oh, and Bonz: Why should he email them? They were the ones that fucked up. They are the ones that made it so overly complicated to register/email/deal with problems that you have to do everything in triplicate, with one foot in a ring of fire with your little pinky toe pointed up, in order to get anything done. Its outrageous.

Following the rules that they have up right now, HF would be fucked. He didn't have access to the original E-mail account, so he couldn't send a message that way. Yeah, he could have sent an e-mail from the new one, but how would you react if a similar e-mail account to an established, but long gone member all of a sudden came out of the blue and said "uh, hey there, my old account is screwed up, can you just hand over my board account to me with this new e-mail address?". Your admin alarms would go to full-on blare. No way would you had over an account like that. No way would anybody hand over an account like that.

So, what to do? HF did what most people would do. He just regged a new account, and planned to let everyone know what was up. Yet, he couldn't, because he was in a lose-lose position. He got fucked by the rules, pure and simple.

In addition, the EI mods/admins have a nasty habit of sweeping shit under the rug. The whole "e-mail/PM us" thing is a symptom of that. Instead of doing what you learned to do early on, that is, to have everything out in the open, they go into their "circled wagon" mode anyone farts, and tells the aggrieved person to "e-mail" them to keep the nasty smell from their "paradise". Well, that might work for Walt Disney world with their secret tunnels/garbage shutes, but Exsile isn't Disney World. It is quicker, faster, and, I might add, more democratic (an ideal that EI supposedly stands for) to keep stuff out in the open so that everyone can see what's going on, and to be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

So, in short, EI's "e-mail" solution isn't one. The problem has been resolved. We know the reasons. HF has no reason to e-mail anyone. He's answered every question that has been thrown out, right here in this thread. All they have to do is read it. An e-mail would just be a repetition of what we've already said in this thread.

 

[HeroicFool]

The fact is that had I not remembered my password through trial and error I would have never been allowed to post at EI at all given the current registration rules.

That too, is something that Orpheus has not addressed, nor will he I'm sure.

 

[Captain Jack]

So, should we add HeroicFool's name to the EI Permaban's list, or wait a little bit longer?

 

[HeroicFool]

I'm not throwing in the towel just yet A Karas.