Donovan
beer, I want beer
Most likely I will do the Donovan method of ignoring the show until or unless enough word of mouth convinces me it got better eventually. Five years or so.
Troll Kingdom
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Lord of the Rings tv show
- Thread starter CaptainWacky
- Start date
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
It's the obsession with mystery boxes and SHOCK REVEALS that really takes me out of it. We now have set up for the SHOCK REVEALS that both Isiludr and Celeborn are STILL ALIVE and we STILL don't know what the deal is with Halbrand (come on, there's a deal) or who the Stranger is. Tolkien didn't fucking write like that.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
He died thirty years before the Peter Jackson movies came out, so it would be impressive if he considered slapping Jackson that far in advance.
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
So there it is. The most obvious things were the things. Halbrand is Sauron, the Stranger is Gandalf (this wasn't completely confirmed, but come on. They gave him several lines from the movies to say "SEE, IT'S GANDALF.") The dialogue is still really bad.
The scene where Sauron was trying to seduce Galadriel was one of the better parts because the actors did a good job playing it. Then it was completely ruined afterwards when Galadriel didn't just instantly tell Elrond and Celebrimbor who he was. Because she was embarrassed or something? She spent hundreds of years hunting Sauron, not caring what the other elves thought of her...but now that she's found him she says nothing? LOL?
The fucking hobbit goodbye scene lasted twenty seven minutes.
When Gandalf said "I am good" it sounded like he was saying "I am Groot" and that would have at least been an upredictable twist. The cultists looked a lot like Nazgul but they can't be? Unless they're time travelling Nazgul? Ah, who cares.
Did we know Isildur's (WHO IS DEAD YOU KNOW) sisster had pretty big breasts before this episode?
Nice of the Balrog to wait until season two before doing anything.
The scene where Sauron was trying to seduce Galadriel was one of the better parts because the actors did a good job playing it. Then it was completely ruined afterwards when Galadriel didn't just instantly tell Elrond and Celebrimbor who he was. Because she was embarrassed or something? She spent hundreds of years hunting Sauron, not caring what the other elves thought of her...but now that she's found him she says nothing? LOL?
The fucking hobbit goodbye scene lasted twenty seven minutes.
When Gandalf said "I am good" it sounded like he was saying "I am Groot" and that would have at least been an upredictable twist. The cultists looked a lot like Nazgul but they can't be? Unless they're time travelling Nazgul? Ah, who cares.
Did we know Isildur's (WHO IS DEAD YOU KNOW) sisster had pretty big breasts before this episode?
Nice of the Balrog to wait until season two before doing anything.
The Tomtrek
Love Wookiee
I liked how they put like 99% of the things people actually wanted to see in the show into the final episode so you had to watch several episodes of shit you don't care about until things happen ALL AT ONE LOOK EVERYTHING'S HAPPENING RIGHT NOW REMEMBER GANDALF REMEMBER RINGS REMEMBER SAURON
Loktar
Pinata Whacker
Me too. And her fat best friend. I downloaded "Wandering Day" onto my YouTube music playlist.
MODMAN
New member
Whatever this is, I'm not sure the term adaption is appropriate. More an alt-universe / Kelvinverse-style retelling of Tolkien's world.
I'm all for a little bit of nip / tuck to canon if the end result is a damn good story. But RoP runs roughshod over the lore for ... this? This dull, mangled and insipid dreck? And trying to hitch itself to PJ's movies with the dialogue references - ugh.
Galadriel might be the most insufferable, unappealing lead I've encountered since Mickey Burnham.
What the hell were they thinking? Sheer fucking hubris.
Anyway, a few random thoughts on the finale:
- I felt the other characters mysteriously went by the wayside. Not that I really care - I would've been quite happy for Mt Doom to have incinerated every last one of them. But no healer lady / black elf, no Durin and Disa ... I didn't feel their storylines were rounded off for the season. They just ... ceased.
- I haven't read the books, but I've gleaned enough to know that they've butchered a lot of the lore. Sauron posed as Annatar, Lord of Gifts ("call it a gift" - oh boy could it be?); I'm assuming that's it for Annatar fans. Also, Sauron had Al-Pharazon's ear, which ultimately lead to Numenor's doom (I think I have that right - don't know details). I get the impression from Tolkien nerds that probably won't be happening either, or at least be an odd fit given what's already transpired.
- Lastly, some fans brought up the forging of the Elven rings. In the books, the Elven rings were forged unbeknownst to Sauron after the rings gifted to the races of Men and Dwarves.
- The Istari don't come to Middle Earth until the Third Age (after Sauron lost the One Ring - right?). So... yeah.
In any event, I doubt I'll be motivated to watch season 2. I suspect this will quickly drop off the pop culture radar and can't imagine it will age particularly well. Two years gap between seasons is poor planning IMO - any momentum the show might've had will be lost. The source material and PJ's films set the bar pretty damn high; this needed to be damn good out the gate. The fact it doesn't even rank as good generic fantasy is disastrous.
I'm all for a little bit of nip / tuck to canon if the end result is a damn good story. But RoP runs roughshod over the lore for ... this? This dull, mangled and insipid dreck? And trying to hitch itself to PJ's movies with the dialogue references - ugh.
Galadriel might be the most insufferable, unappealing lead I've encountered since Mickey Burnham.
What the hell were they thinking? Sheer fucking hubris.
Anyway, a few random thoughts on the finale:
- I felt the other characters mysteriously went by the wayside. Not that I really care - I would've been quite happy for Mt Doom to have incinerated every last one of them. But no healer lady / black elf, no Durin and Disa ... I didn't feel their storylines were rounded off for the season. They just ... ceased.
- I haven't read the books, but I've gleaned enough to know that they've butchered a lot of the lore. Sauron posed as Annatar, Lord of Gifts ("call it a gift" - oh boy could it be?); I'm assuming that's it for Annatar fans. Also, Sauron had Al-Pharazon's ear, which ultimately lead to Numenor's doom (I think I have that right - don't know details). I get the impression from Tolkien nerds that probably won't be happening either, or at least be an odd fit given what's already transpired.
- Lastly, some fans brought up the forging of the Elven rings. In the books, the Elven rings were forged unbeknownst to Sauron after the rings gifted to the races of Men and Dwarves.
- The Istari don't come to Middle Earth until the Third Age (after Sauron lost the One Ring - right?). So... yeah.
In any event, I doubt I'll be motivated to watch season 2. I suspect this will quickly drop off the pop culture radar and can't imagine it will age particularly well. Two years gap between seasons is poor planning IMO - any momentum the show might've had will be lost. The source material and PJ's films set the bar pretty damn high; this needed to be damn good out the gate. The fact it doesn't even rank as good generic fantasy is disastrous.
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MODMAN
New member
One other thing:
- Galadriel: you've been hunting this SOB for hundreds of years. You're in the heart of Elven territory and he only has a couple of hours head start on you. MAYBE tell someone? As Sean Connery said in that movie with Wesley Snipes: "fix the problem, then place the blame". Whatever her contribution to how events unfolded, they're all adults. Sauron confirmed. Red - fucking - alert. Instead, she keeps it on the down low and insists they follow through on Sauron's plan - except with an extra ring.
Huh?
- Galadriel: you've been hunting this SOB for hundreds of years. You're in the heart of Elven territory and he only has a couple of hours head start on you. MAYBE tell someone? As Sean Connery said in that movie with Wesley Snipes: "fix the problem, then place the blame". Whatever her contribution to how events unfolded, they're all adults. Sauron confirmed. Red - fucking - alert. Instead, she keeps it on the down low and insists they follow through on Sauron's plan - except with an extra ring.
Huh?
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
I'm guessing the name Annater only appears in The Silmarillion so they can't use it.
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MODMAN
New member
This definitely deserved to be posted twice!
I think Sean T. Collin's review of the finale episode was a well-reasoned rebuke:
‘The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power’ Episode 8 Recap: Where the Shadows Lie to You
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
I've been watching this guy go slowly mad every week. I never quite make it through the full video but I get the general idea.
He's a bigtime Tolkien nerd and sometimes I think he goes too far with the nitpicking of canon changes (he does the same for the Peter Jackson movies but at least acknowledges that they're good movies) but he usually brings up good points that I haven't thought of.
He's a bigtime Tolkien nerd and sometimes I think he goes too far with the nitpicking of canon changes (he does the same for the Peter Jackson movies but at least acknowledges that they're good movies) but he usually brings up good points that I haven't thought of.
lol I've been watching him as well. He seems pretty level-headed and fair and went into the show with what seems like good intentions and I've found it hard to disagree with anything he's said so far really (although I haven't seen everything).
CaptainWacky
I want to smell dark matter
AS EVERYONE KNOWS I've a big Tolkien nerd; I've read all 12 History of Middle Earth books and everything, I know! But pretty early on I was able to accept that the show doesn't fit with the continuity of Tolkien's universe at all. I'd rather that it DID, of course, but I'd be fine with it being some alternative universe take or whatever...IF I thought it was good enough. But even leaving aside its incongruity with Tolkien, I think the show fails on a fundamental world-building level. There's no sense of the geography of Middle Earth, how large its population is, it barely gives lip service to the different languages everyone would be speaking...it just doesn't have the sense of versimilitude I need from a fantasy world. Like did they even explain why the fuck three certain Elves wearing tiny rings stops EVERY elf from fading away or whatever the fuck was supposed to be happening to them? Wouldn't they all need their own ring? Why did Isildur's friends and family go all the way back to Numenor without CHECKING TO SEE IF HE WAS REALLY DEAD? Wouldn't they at least want to take his body back for a proper burial? And a lot more questions! So what I'm trying to say is leaving my Tolkien snobbery aside I feel the show is lacking!
As I said in my first post I was willing to give it some slack because the concept as presented wasn't going to be able to keep in step with what we know about the Second Age when adapted to a television show but this takes liberties that are still too egregious.
We are all aware of the culture war nonsense that permeates fucking everything these days and how shows like these become flashpoints for it; and yes, there are people that just can't accept black people in their fantasy shows but I think as the weeks went on with Rings of Power the bigoted voices zoning in on that became thankfully drowned out rather quickly with the large amounts of valid criticism rising steadily as the corporate side of Amazon started amplifying any criticism as obviously coming from racists and that made people perk up and see they were possibly getting gaslit. Yes, it's an unfortunate factor those people exist, no you can't shield your tv show from criticism by labeling those that have legitimate issues with it as said, racists.
Articles like these zone in heavily on how "far right" Tolkien fans are trying to force their view of the show on everyone else without giving anything but lip service to the idea that caring about a trillion-dollar company not fucking up a beloved and revered piece of art doesn't make you bigoted.
I think the VAST majority of people were like us in that they might not have been thrilled with the idea of the show knowing that it would have to fill in so many blanks and who was behind it but were willing to give it a fair shot, and were intrigued enough to sit down and do so without black elves or dwarves being a factor into how they reviewed it.
It's still not a good show.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's badly made even before we get to the writing. Yes, there are some gorgeous vista shots and you can see they didn't film this in a broom closet but so what?
Putting the much-maligned writing aside the direction was poor, and the acting positively cringe-inducing at times. The sets seemed too clean and well, "set-like" and nothing feels truly lived in. It fails at transporting you to Middle-Earth. It always feels like it's a rather expensive show with actors on expensive sound stages. Sure we would have a beautiful vista shot of Númenor but then it would cut to the set and it would just look off. It all looks over-produced because it is.
It's given me an even greater appreciation for how authentic almost everything looked in Peter Jackson's films.
I feel horrible saying this because none of the actors are ultimately to blame and I can only imagine how much of a thrill it must have been to be cast in something you would have had every reason to believe is going to be another feather in the cap of a cultural touchstone but the casting is not great.
Morfydd Clark isn't a very good actress I'm afraid. She has a really limited range and just doesn't have anywhere near the gravitas for the role. Galadriel as a character is badly realized from a writing standpoint to where the choices they made with her being almost inexplicable at times, but even with what she was given she never really sells it well. This is a pretty massive problem when you consider she's the protagonist of the whole endeavor and I do feel for her because the failure of this show in my eyes sits firmly at the feet of J.D Payne, Patrick McKay, and of course Jeff Bezos but it doesn't help when you have her delivering what are supposed to be these big epic moments and it just not selling well at all.
I understand there is a hesitance with not wanting to come off as an elitist but I think we should keep in mind that this is an Amazon production. They are not the plucky underdogs trying their best and then getting hounded and shamed for not reaching the impossible standards people have set. I categorically refuse to accept that narrative. Tolkien DOES deserve reverence and those who have such a close love for the source material DO matter and they are perfectly entitled to be quite upset if they see something they hold dear being treated with not enough care and dare I say it, arrogance.
I don't know the showrunners personally as people of course but even in the run-up, there was always a sense of arrogance I felt coming from them with a few off remarks (writing the story Tolkein never did, etc) and a sense that they knew best. Well, they don't. Amazon as a company and the marketing around the show was also a shit show. None of this instilled confidence.
OK, I'm ranting a bit but bear with me. We know a lot was created for the show and we know that you can't do a straight adaptation that is faithful to the Second Age but there were so many weird choices made here. They didn't just fill in the gaps they straight up tore up what we do know and just changed that as well and the choices they made were all badly thought-out garbage if I'm being blunt. It always feels like the choices being made are coming from a place of what they THINK makes Tolkien's world so magical without understanding what actually does.
The Sauron reveal despite being PAINFULLY obvious was watchable but only because Sauron is a fascinating character from even a conceptual level and seeing him in his disguised "human" form and the mask fall was pretty cool but then you're jerked back to reality when you remember how many bastardizations of the source material are taking place and just sigh.
Imagine signing off on the script that turns the lord of gifts, the dark lord himself disguised as Annatar seducing the master craftsman elves of Eregion to this:
"just mix in some mithril innit!"
I played Shadow of War when it came out (good game) and I started thinking about the story from that. Those games take MASSIVE liberties with the lore of Tolkien as well and are unashamed fan fiction but all of their major story beats and how Sauron and Celebrimbor were represented were better than anything done in Rings of Power which is pretty damning really!
You could tell everyone important who worked on the Jackson films from Peter himself, Weta Workshop, and Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens adapting the screenplay (what an undertaking) had this deep sense of what world they were trying to recreate for the screen. The more years pass the more of a miracle it seems that those films came out so well. Wasn't Speilberg attached at some point? Shudders
There have been plenty of people that have ripped into the plot holes of Rings of Power and such so I'll leave that but what it really comes down to for me is that I don't think the showrunners understood the source material they were dealing with. Yes, they have obviously read the books but that doesn't mean that it will automatically resonate with you. I don't think they have an emotional resonance with this stuff at all.
Anyway, no season 2 until 2024 it looks like. Might be dead by then!
We are all aware of the culture war nonsense that permeates fucking everything these days and how shows like these become flashpoints for it; and yes, there are people that just can't accept black people in their fantasy shows but I think as the weeks went on with Rings of Power the bigoted voices zoning in on that became thankfully drowned out rather quickly with the large amounts of valid criticism rising steadily as the corporate side of Amazon started amplifying any criticism as obviously coming from racists and that made people perk up and see they were possibly getting gaslit. Yes, it's an unfortunate factor those people exist, no you can't shield your tv show from criticism by labeling those that have legitimate issues with it as said, racists.
Articles like these zone in heavily on how "far right" Tolkien fans are trying to force their view of the show on everyone else without giving anything but lip service to the idea that caring about a trillion-dollar company not fucking up a beloved and revered piece of art doesn't make you bigoted.
I think the VAST majority of people were like us in that they might not have been thrilled with the idea of the show knowing that it would have to fill in so many blanks and who was behind it but were willing to give it a fair shot, and were intrigued enough to sit down and do so without black elves or dwarves being a factor into how they reviewed it.
It's still not a good show.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say it's badly made even before we get to the writing. Yes, there are some gorgeous vista shots and you can see they didn't film this in a broom closet but so what?
Putting the much-maligned writing aside the direction was poor, and the acting positively cringe-inducing at times. The sets seemed too clean and well, "set-like" and nothing feels truly lived in. It fails at transporting you to Middle-Earth. It always feels like it's a rather expensive show with actors on expensive sound stages. Sure we would have a beautiful vista shot of Númenor but then it would cut to the set and it would just look off. It all looks over-produced because it is.
It's given me an even greater appreciation for how authentic almost everything looked in Peter Jackson's films.
I feel horrible saying this because none of the actors are ultimately to blame and I can only imagine how much of a thrill it must have been to be cast in something you would have had every reason to believe is going to be another feather in the cap of a cultural touchstone but the casting is not great.
Morfydd Clark isn't a very good actress I'm afraid. She has a really limited range and just doesn't have anywhere near the gravitas for the role. Galadriel as a character is badly realized from a writing standpoint to where the choices they made with her being almost inexplicable at times, but even with what she was given she never really sells it well. This is a pretty massive problem when you consider she's the protagonist of the whole endeavor and I do feel for her because the failure of this show in my eyes sits firmly at the feet of J.D Payne, Patrick McKay, and of course Jeff Bezos but it doesn't help when you have her delivering what are supposed to be these big epic moments and it just not selling well at all.
I understand there is a hesitance with not wanting to come off as an elitist but I think we should keep in mind that this is an Amazon production. They are not the plucky underdogs trying their best and then getting hounded and shamed for not reaching the impossible standards people have set. I categorically refuse to accept that narrative. Tolkien DOES deserve reverence and those who have such a close love for the source material DO matter and they are perfectly entitled to be quite upset if they see something they hold dear being treated with not enough care and dare I say it, arrogance.
I don't know the showrunners personally as people of course but even in the run-up, there was always a sense of arrogance I felt coming from them with a few off remarks (writing the story Tolkein never did, etc) and a sense that they knew best. Well, they don't. Amazon as a company and the marketing around the show was also a shit show. None of this instilled confidence.
OK, I'm ranting a bit but bear with me. We know a lot was created for the show and we know that you can't do a straight adaptation that is faithful to the Second Age but there were so many weird choices made here. They didn't just fill in the gaps they straight up tore up what we do know and just changed that as well and the choices they made were all badly thought-out garbage if I'm being blunt. It always feels like the choices being made are coming from a place of what they THINK makes Tolkien's world so magical without understanding what actually does.
The Sauron reveal despite being PAINFULLY obvious was watchable but only because Sauron is a fascinating character from even a conceptual level and seeing him in his disguised "human" form and the mask fall was pretty cool but then you're jerked back to reality when you remember how many bastardizations of the source material are taking place and just sigh.
Imagine signing off on the script that turns the lord of gifts, the dark lord himself disguised as Annatar seducing the master craftsman elves of Eregion to this:
"just mix in some mithril innit!"
I played Shadow of War when it came out (good game) and I started thinking about the story from that. Those games take MASSIVE liberties with the lore of Tolkien as well and are unashamed fan fiction but all of their major story beats and how Sauron and Celebrimbor were represented were better than anything done in Rings of Power which is pretty damning really!
You could tell everyone important who worked on the Jackson films from Peter himself, Weta Workshop, and Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens adapting the screenplay (what an undertaking) had this deep sense of what world they were trying to recreate for the screen. The more years pass the more of a miracle it seems that those films came out so well. Wasn't Speilberg attached at some point? Shudders
There have been plenty of people that have ripped into the plot holes of Rings of Power and such so I'll leave that but what it really comes down to for me is that I don't think the showrunners understood the source material they were dealing with. Yes, they have obviously read the books but that doesn't mean that it will automatically resonate with you. I don't think they have an emotional resonance with this stuff at all.
Anyway, no season 2 until 2024 it looks like. Might be dead by then!
The Question
Eternal
"How could they have gotten it so wrong?!"
I've seen that asked. But it proceeds from an incorrect premise, the incorrect premise being that they intended to do the source material justice and failed.
They didn't fail. They intended to shit on Tolkien's work and the fans of that work. They did precisely what they set out to do.
I've seen that asked. But it proceeds from an incorrect premise, the incorrect premise being that they intended to do the source material justice and failed.
They didn't fail. They intended to shit on Tolkien's work and the fans of that work. They did precisely what they set out to do.
MODMAN
New member
I've made similar remarks regarding NuTrek -- it ain't a bug, it's a feature.
You can see what a passion project it was for all involved. There's also this insightful comparison between ROP v. LOTR costuming:
You can see what a passion project it was for all involved. There's also this insightful comparison between ROP v. LOTR costuming: