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wtf exisle?

Forgive me, but how is being bilingual to get a job any different from having computer skills, college degree, technical licensing, sheriff's security clearance, or any of the hundreds of thousands of prerequisites for jobs all over this country? Your argument is nonsensical. EVERY job has particular requirements for hire, even if it's something as simple as passing a drug test or having a valid driver license. How in the world is a language requirement any different?

It's not a skill. It's pandering to new immigrations who are too lazy to learn the language of the country in which they wish to become resident. Our de facto language which united us for 200+ years has been English. Other immigrants came in and learned the language. Why can't these guys?

As for signage, I pointed out already that most of the rest of the world has multilingual signage, and it doesn't seem to bother them. Give me ONE credible example of how having an extra sign has hurt you directly in any way, and I'll concede that argument. I'm fairly confident that won't happen, unless you had one blow over on you in a windstorm or something.

This is America, not Europe. What they do is their own concern. Plus - their circumstances are different. They have many much smaller countries all with their own languages, next to each other. It would be different here if Florida was Spanish-speaking, Georgia German speaking, Alabama French speaking, etc. Then I could see the signs. But we have always been an English-speaking community minus ethnic enclaves and even those who lived in them, had to learn English to function in the regular society at large. As I said, that helps unite us. I'm a firm believer in the melting pot. I like others to come and to bring new traditions and stuff which (some) eventually become part of our traditions, but I feel that starting down the road to multiple languages = balkanization/tribalization. Who needs that shit?

PS you do understand that all your ancestors were as reviled as the Mexicans you currently target, and basically gathered themselves in tightknit little communities where they could protect and insulate themselves from intolerant Americans, and that they also spoke their mother tongue for about two generations until assimilation took hold naturally? And in some cases, like those of the Irish, the previous immigrants actually hated their own people who came later and treated them horribly.

Certainly. I'm of Irish extraction and they were hated in some places. I'm sure my Germans weren't liked around the time of the WWs. However, the Irish response wasn't to throw a snit and demand that we accommodate them, they learned the language (The Irish speaking ones, not all Irish spoke Irish) and ways and melted in like the rest of us.

Many of new immigrants don't WANT to melt in. That is my problem. I feel that we should do what we can to encourage them to do so. Last thing I want to see is my country factionalized and that is what would happen. I want to see us all as AMERICANS, not "hyphenated-Americans." If you leave a country, you should do your best to adapt to your new home. If you want to bring all your baggage from the old country, don't come here. Stay there!

In a lesser manner, it's like me going to Europe and being pissed that things are different and that things aren't catering to Americans. That's rude. When I go to Europe, I do my very best to adapt to European behaviors and ways, and yes, do my best to adapt to their languages. I guarantee you, if I emigrated, one of my highest priorities would be to come up to speed as quickly as I could in the language of whatever country. I wouldn't be whining that they should be bilingual for my benefit.
 
It's not a skill. It's pandering to new immigrations who are too lazy to learn the language of the country in which they wish to become resident. Our de facto language which united us for 200+ years has been English. Other immigrants came in and learned the language. Why can't these guys?
Empirical evidence indicates this statement is wrong. Almost universally, first-generation immigrants from foreign-speaking lands fail to grasp the new language at anything more than very rudimentary levels. It takes three generations. I linked to one of the many places where you can learn about linguistic trending and assimilation. Laziness has nothing to do with it.



This is America, not Europe. What they do is their own concern. Plus - their circumstances are different. They have many much smaller countries all with their own languages, next to each other. It would be different here if Florida was Spanish-speaking, Georgia German speaking, Alabama French speaking, etc. Then I could see the signs. But we have always been an English-speaking community minus ethnic enclaves and even those who lived in them, had to learn English to function in the regular society at large. As I said, that helps unite us. I'm a firm believer in the melting pot. I like others to come and to bring new traditions and stuff which (some) eventually become part of our traditions, but I feel that starting down the road to multiple languages = balkanization/tribalization. Who needs that shit?
Today I was at Strong Hospital in the University of Rochester Medical Center. At the front desk, posted prominently in several locations along the main corridor, was a sign offering translation services.

In nine languages. I counted. I waited patiently for this sign to somehow damage my psyche and make me or my country less Amercian, but it didn't happen.

Your assessment is incorrect. Ours is a nation of immigrants and always, ALWAYS, has been multilingual. There are communities of Japanese and Chinese on either coast. Huge Puerto Rican populations in New York and Florida. The aforementioned Mexican populations throughout the entire western USA. Italian populations in various spots. French acadians in Maine and Louisiana. Aleuts in Alaska; hundreds of aboriginals in places across the country. Hmungs in the great lakes. Bosnian, Thai, Somalis, Rwandans, Jews, Cubans, and yes, English and Irish etc.; our country has always been about diversity, and to pretend otherwise is not only incorrect it does a great disservice to the very origin of our nation.



Certainly. I'm of Irish extraction and they were hated in some places. I'm sure my Germans weren't liked around the time of the WWs. However, the Irish response wasn't to throw a snit and demand that we accommodate them, they learned the language (The Irish speaking ones, not all Irish spoke Irish) and ways and melted in like the rest of us.
Irish at one point were considered "white niggers." Let's not kid ourselves. They were as badly treated in their time as Chinese, blacks, Italians and other maligned immigrants when they first arrived. Any time people show up on our shores with little or nothing we tend to trash them and their fellows; we are only really a great welcoming nation in myth. Mostly we're bastards to the n00bs.

Many of new immigrants don't WANT to melt in. That is my problem. I feel that we should do what we can to encourage them to do so. Last thing I want to see is my country factionalized and that is what would happen. I want to see us all as AMERICANS, not "hyphenated-Americans." If you leave a country, you should do your best to adapt to your new home. If you want to bring all your baggage from the old country, don't come here. Stay there!
When communities fresh "off the boat" huddle together it is most often due to a hostile welcome from the 'new home' itself. People like Tamar and Eloisel, who demand instant assimilation and yet are unwilling, unable or simply uncaring in allowing for a learning process, and are downright hostile to any attempts at comingling. It is no wonder that these groups, alone in an alien environment, seek out the familiar in language, custom, and culture. It gives them comfort in what often proves to be a hardscrabble existence. Again, thousands of years of anthropological study supports my position. This behavior is universal enough to almost be considered instinct; you're going to hold that against them?

In a lesser manner, it's like me going to Europe and being pissed that things are different and that things aren't catering to Americans. That's rude. When I go to Europe, I do my very best to adapt to European behaviors and ways, and yes, do my best to adapt to their languages. I guarantee you, if I emigrated, one of my highest priorities would be to come up to speed as quickly as I could in the language of whatever country. I wouldn't be whining that they should be bilingual for my benefit.
This is irrelevant considering that most western-friendly countries DO cater to Americans, both in signage and language. Learning a second or third language is common everywhere else in the world, and English is the frequent universal choice. And even the ones who hate us often pretend to be super friendly to Americans, if it's only because they're afraid we'll blow their shit up if they don't. And while I don't doubt you would try to learn a new home language, I also guarantee you would instinctively gravitate toward familiar sights, sounds and cultural icons, and would find yourself very quickly in groups of fellow countrymen speaking your own language. Your kids would be MUCH better at the new language than you, and their kids would probably not know much English at all. But you would probably never truly assimilate, much as you want to swear otherwise.

It just doesn't work that way.
 
Does anyone else appreciate the irony of the thread title considering how the topic drifted from "WTF Ex-Isle" to "WTF exiles?" I like it...
 
America rewards stupidity while punishing those that play by the rules.

This convo, like many others, can be summed up with the golden rule of life
People are Stupid.

No, people are creatures of habit. Mobs of people are stupid.
 
No, people are creatures of habit. Mobs of people are stupid.

I agree that mobs of people are just as dumb, if not dumber, but on an individual basic, the majority of people out there will prove their own stupidity. For example, just take a drive on any street of America, or walk around any mall to see for yourself.
 
I agree that mobs of people are just as dumb, if not dumber, but on an individual basic, the majority of people out there will prove their own stupidity. For example, just take a drive on any street of America, or walk around any mall to see for yourself.

Well, that depends on your distinction between "uneducated" and stupid. I fear for our next generation, clearly. Deliberate stupidity has somehow become fashionable among the young. But by and large, individuals when left to their own devices will somehow instinctively know which is the right thing to do, and many will choose to do it.

Mobs do not have that talent, and in fact will almost universally do the wrong thing. Individuals can be altruistic; mobs can't.
 
the problem is they dont know how to smoke pot.

So they end up getting their brains messed up because Damn it, they've got ISSUES.

YOU DON'T KNOW ME MAN, STEP OFF MAN. STEP OFF.
 
No, I like it. Show me some right now, I wanna see you speak Armenian.
Look now .....
oh ... you'll have to wait. I have to learn it first. When my ancestors migrated here they adopted the language of this country. They left Armenia because it sucked to live there, religious oppression and all. They didn't want to make America over in the image of the place they left.

The thing is, Donovan, you have a problem with me being racist, insensitive, petulant, intolerant, unyielding, etc. Yet you seem to have no problem with the same behaviours coming from the Mexicans. Is it because you hate white people? Do you embrace white guilt or something? You say that I've done something bad to them. No I haven't. I go to work, pay my bills, pay my taxes, abide by the law. Yes, I consider it a problem that my community is becoming primarily Hispanic and that those Hispanics do not speak English. I don't like it. I know you don't give a shit. My feelings don't matter. I'm white. But, outside of that one time I walked out of the store because that bitch was continuously rude to me, trying to teach me Spanish to accommodate her, I have done nothing to harm any of them. However, I have participated in clothing drives, food drives, funding for programs to assist the poor, worked for the Red Cross in disaster relief and in assisting elderly/indigent/ill people to bring problem properties up to code, passed out blankets and food on frozen nights to the homeless. What have you done to improve the life of any human being - that you did not have to do, for someone who wasn't a relative or was part of your job - besides preach and condemn and criticize other people?
 
Look now .....
oh ... you'll have to wait. I have to learn it first. When my ancestors migrated here they adopted the language of this country. They left Armenia because it sucked to live there, religious oppression and all. They didn't want to make America over in the image of the place they left.
Without knowing your ancestors, I can practically guarantee the following things: 1. They were not welcomed with open arms, 2. It took at least two, probably three generations for them to learn the language and the originals probably never fully grasped it, 3. They brought a large chunk of their culture with them and continued to enjoy that which made them Armenian even on our soil and 4. They grouped in communities where there was a high concentration of other Armenians.

The thing is, Donovan, you have a problem with me being racist, insensitive, petulant, intolerant, unyielding, etc.
I don't have a problem with you being a racist since you don't live in my neighborhood. You, however, seem to have a large problem with me calling your behavior what it is. Perhaps your defensiveness should be telling you something.
Yet you seem to have no problem with the same behaviours coming from the Mexicans.
You haven't given me any examples that are specific to Mexicans only. I asked a series of questions that you really haven't been able to address, such as: how is a multilingual ATM negatively affecting your life? how is a clerk asking you "como esta" ruining your life? How does your bitchy neighbor wanting a separate meeting ruining your life?

Is it because you hate white people? Do you embrace white guilt or something?
No. I have simply had a great deal of exposure to various communities and cultures across this country, and that exposure has raised my level of empathy for people in differing situations. I daresay my tolerance level has been drastically affected by the fact that I have been an "immigrant" all my life to various places, and the outsider feeling is one I can understand much better than, say, a person who has looked out at the same neighborhood all her life.

You say that I've done something bad to them. No I haven't.
I did not say you had done something bad, I said your anecdote reflected an ill-conceived belief that the Mexican community is acting the way they do just to piss you off.

I go to work, pay my bills, pay my taxes, abide by the law. Yes, I consider it a problem that my community is becoming primarily Hispanic and that those Hispanics do not speak English. I don't like it. I know you don't give a shit. My feelings don't matter. I'm white.
You are projecting your own insecurities again, I have not at any time said your feelings are less justified and in fact I provided a number of examples showing that you too are following common human nature. Chances are good, don't you think, that if I didn't care about your feelings and attitudes that I wouldn't bother carrying on this bloated conversation? I understand your feelings, and I happen to think there is a different way to see things. I think your current view, if shared by enough people, is dangerous to a portion of our population so I'm trying to share another viewpoint. You may or may not listen, but it won't stop me from saying it. It's how I'm wired.

But, outside of that one time I walked out of the store because that bitch was continuously rude to me, trying to teach me Spanish to accommodate her, I have done nothing to harm any of them. However, I have participated in clothing drives, food drives, funding for programs to assist the poor, worked for the Red Cross in disaster relief and in assisting elderly/indigent/ill people to bring problem properties up to code, passed out blankets and food on frozen nights to the homeless. What have you done to improve the life of any human being - that you did not have to do, for someone who wasn't a relative or was part of your job - besides preach and condemn and criticize other people?
Since you have no earthly idea who I am and what I have done for people, I'll leave this alone as irrelevant to the conversation. Bad people do good things when it suits them or conditions are just right; and good people can behave horribly if circumstances fall a certain way. Which group you fall into only you can say, that's not my call. But as far as preaching and condemning and criticizing other people--isn't that what you're doing to the entire Mexican population in your town? Did I miss the part where that became okay for you?
 
So.....about exisle?

If we were arguing like this on Exisle, people would be warned, warned again, put on notice, slung a bagel around, put on suspension, put on a longer suspension, banned, banned again, permabanned, super permabanned, hunted down and neutered/spayed, then, all their progeny hunted down and quarantined.

We're not making policy here.
 
To make this complete, we need a party to go to Ex-Isle and insist that posts need to be in Spanish or they are racists and bigots. :D
 
To make this complete, we need a party to go to Ex-Isle and insist that posts need to be in Spanish or they are racists and bigots. :D

You've still got a functional account, right, darling? They've permabanned me, again. :(

Donovan - :techman:
 
To make this complete, we need a party to go to Ex-Isle and insist that posts need to be in Spanish or they are racists and bigots. :D

I agree.

And, I think Donovan should lead the party with his most excellent arguments while all the time referring to Mexicans as beaners.
 
^yeah, we can argue that Crassus comes from another culture (L.A., lol. Another planet as far as I am concerned) and doesn't know the do's and don'ts of social interactions in normal US communities, and therefore, banning him on grounds of cultural misunderstandings is completely racist and politically incorrect. Anything but re-admitting him into ExIsle would be highly unjust!
 
Somebody should just cut and paste this entire thread over there, one post at a time, complete with thread title. I suspect that would be kindling enough for whatever bans/lockdowns/purges you want...if you space out the replies by a minute or two or five, we could take bets on how many get reposted before the lockdown happens. I say it doesn't get to page two...
 
True lol. It's been a while, but didn't my opener go something like "What the fuck is wrong with these people? Are they SERIOUS?"
 
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