wtf exisle?

[eloisel]

You obviously know nothing about me, or you would know all of that is as far from the truth as you can get.

Then tell me why I am wrong. Tell me what makes you an independent thinking person, a rogue, an individual.

The point that Donovan keeps bringing up, which you ignore time and time again, is WHY did you feel it necessary to point out that one of the reasons that the world is in chaos is because Obama is half black? You keep backpedaling by saying shit that doesn't have anything to do with the price of green apples.

I didn't feel it necessary. I just wrote it. More than likely because it has been the big thing about him - the first black president. However, he is half white too. Interesting that he isn't referred to as the first bi-racial president, which is more accurate.

Further, I think there are many people who are afraid to say anything about what Obama does even if they don't like it because they are afraid of being branded racist and suffering the backlash that brings.

I don't care if you consider me to be a racist. In some respects I am. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing for reasons of self preservation.

 

[Donovan]

Donovan argues like you do - he doesn't make points - he just repeats the same old impersonal shit.

"You don't agree with me so you are stupid."

I don't think I ever called you stupid. I said, based on the tenor of your posts, that you appeared to be ill-informed, shrill, racist, and not an easy person to deal with in person. All these observations based on your anecdotal evidence.

"You don't have the right to not agree with me because if you don't agree with me you are stupid."

See above. Your hostility toward me is based on your inability to defend a blunt statement you made, to wit: part of the reason the country is in chaos is because the President is half-black.

"I can tell you what you should think about abortion but you don't have the right to tell me or anybody else what they should think about abortion."

Not my argument. As someone else in this thread succintly argued, abortion is one of those topics where compromise is not gonna happen, and NOBODY is gonna change their mind. So my opinion matters little to the discussion. Especially since I have a penis and am therefore disqualified from the intensely personal nature of the topic.

"You are a racist because you aren't afraid to recognize that we aren't all exactly alike."

You are a racist if your sole reason for thinking less of a person is based on the ethnicity or color of their skin. As you seem to demonstrate in your opinions of half-black people and those who come from Mexico. I exempt you from your statements about the Koreans since you provided adequate reasons for hating them, i.e doggie teasing.

"How dare you want to speak English in America!"

Speaking English in America, okay. Demanding that first-generation immigrants acquire a skill that science is saying may be difficult or impossible, and thinking less of someone for not doing what you also can't do (speak two languages at the wave of a wand), NOT okay.

Incidentally, I hate to break it to you, but I believe you live in Texas, a state that was originally property of the Mexican government. Americans first settled there in large numbers only after the civil war, and Texas only became a state after bloody conflict with those same Mexicans. So demanding that the Mexicans in that state speak English is a little like the Nazis demanding everyone in Paris speak German during the second world war. Sure, Texas is American now. But to ignore a few thousand years of prior existence is just ignorant.

"You aren't saying what I want you to say. How fucking dare you, you stupid, idiot, crabby old bitch."

Yeah I called you a crabby old bitch. But since you were busy making some broad assumptions I thought I'd make some assumptions about a broad. LOL see how I did that there?

"You're ugly."

"You're fat."

"You're stupid."

"You're blah, blah, blah."

You are projecting. I didn't say any of these, even stupid. You have insecurities I know or care little about.

There isn't anything to learn from either you or Donovan on any subject of importance. The only thing you tell me about yourselves is that you don't have any real experiences that shape your thoughts and your beliefs, probably because you don't have any real life personal relationships that aren't very casual and superficial. It is also evident that neither of you are capable of holding opinions that aren't currently popular and, therefore, unable to think for yourselves. In short, there is nothing genuine or interesting about you. You're simply shit to stir with a stick. As much as I like shit stirring, at some point I am fortunate to be distracted by other more interesting things.

It is easy to assume from my online persona that I have no life experience, since I don't share much of it. I am a private person by nature, despite my frank honesty in some matters. And unlike some people, I don't vomit up my entire life story onto the screen the second somebody asks me "Como esta?"

But don't assume because a person is younger, calmer or of a different mindset that they have nothing to add. I prefer to think everyone has some varied experience to draw from, even you, and I base my opinions solely on your own words. Fewe people are totally without value. My life experience has taught me that.

 

[Una Salus Lillius]

It is never the kid's that is just a few inches away from being allowed to live.

I was agreeing with Obama, thinking maybe, just maybe ...
then I saw one of his speeches where he addressed abortion.
He says he is going to teach his daughters morals and values, about contraception, and other good things
then
(see around :45 seconds into this clip of that speech shown on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBJryE6nUVM)
he says he would rather his daughters get an abortion than be punished with a baby if they make a mistake.

A baby should never be considered a punishment. But based on everything I've seen of Obama (and as you may know I have no love for him) I think that remark was ill considered and off the cuff but I don't believe it reflects his policy. As to what he's teaching his girls, well I don't think either of us is in a position to know that. Personally, I find his views about homosexuality to be completely wrong. I have no use for the "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing because I think it's dishonest. Anyways, I think there IS a problem with people somehow getting the idea that abortion is just another form of birth control. Birth control prevents pregnancies. Abortion ENDS the pregnancy and of course those are two different things.

But, and as you've pointed out, legislating it has not worked. I guess we need to find a way to keep the choice in the right hands while still pressing home the point that it is a horrible choice which I would think would be life changing.

Lil

 

[Robert "Monkey" Loggia]

I don't care if you consider me to be a racist. In some respects I am. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing for reasons of self preservation.

Please explain.

 

[eloisel]

Please explain.

Tell me why you care.

 

[Robert "Monkey" Loggia]

I'm just curious from a sociological standpoint. Legitimately curious, not just trolling.

 

[eloisel]

I'm just curious from a sociological standpoint. Legitimately curious, not just trolling.

Sorry, you don't offer anything in return to keep me investing myself in this discussion.

 

[Tamar_Garish]

...people are let in without needing to learn the language that doesn't make them racist or bigoted.

True.

But I would say that makes them unqualified to be a customer service employee in a country where the majority of the population speaks English.

The notion the average American should learn every language on Earth so that immigrants don't have to be bothered to learn one is both ridiculous and illogical in the extreme.

 

[Donovan]

True.

But I would say that makes them unqualified to be a customer service employee in a country where the majority of the population speaks English.

The notion the average American should learn every language on Earth so that immigrants don't have to be bothered to learn one is both ridiculous and illogical in the extreme.

So is the notion that every single person on the planet should instantly and miraculously assimilate to flawless English, WITHOUT ACTUALLY INTERACTING with English speaking people until they have managed to do so, simply so that xenophobic twats won't be inconvenienced by the effort of using their myopic little brains to translate such insidious culture-destroying phrases as "How are you?", "Have a nice day", and "Thank you come again".

God forbid.

 

[Tamar_Garish]

Please.

Then they should not get a job in a majority English-speaking public sector until THEY learn the basics of English.

Your hyperbole is bullshit. Do you trot down to Mexico and expect the population there to know your language? Would you think them racist for not knowing English in the Mexican general populace? Would you even go there without learning some basics of Spanish to get by?

Some people have no intention or opportunity to leave the country...why should they spend time learning foreign languages they will have no need for?

No...the onus is on the immigrant to educate themselves on the basics of their new homeland, not the homeland to accommodate to them.

 

[aeommai]

Maybe isn't one of the qualifications of getting the job?

e.x 7-11, all you need to know is how to count, give change, and accept debit cards. Actually, I'd kind of like all those gas station dork jobs to shut the fuck up and just do their job.

 

[Donovan]

Please.

Then they should not get a job in a majority English-speaking public sector until THEY learn the basics of English.

Your hyperbole is bullshit. Do you trot down to Mexico and expect the population there to know your language? Would you think them racist for not knowing English in the Mexican general populace? Would you even go there without learning some basics of Spanish to get by?

Some people have no intention or opportunity to leave the country...why should they spend time learning foreign languages they will have no need for?

No...the onus is on the immigrant to educate themselves on the basics of their new homeland, not the homeland to accommodate to them.

If you knew as much about the basics of linguistic training as you do about spouting xenophobic horseshit, you would understand that one of the KEY methods of learning a new language is by immersion, i.e. "taking a job in a majority" sector where the new language is spoken. You find this very basic premise in most American high schools where the teacher speaks ONLY the studied language after a certain point.

Further, your point about whether I would trot over to X country and expect them to speak English is invalidated by the fact that as Americans we do that all the damn time. All over the world. We're famous for it, this stubborn refusal to learn other languages, and since we have recently been a financial power many countries accommodate us by putting English sign-age up and teaching their children English in school.

Finally, as I stated earlier complete with citations: Massive statistical evidence indicates that in overwhelming numbers, immigrants to a new country follow a specific trend, to wit: 1st generation struggles to learn even basic words; second generation is bilingual with the NEW language being the dominant one; and third generation speaks exclusively the new language and generally very little of the old tongue. This trend is almost invariable.

So your haughty insistence that all immigrants instantly wave a wand and grow a command of the language, no matter what their personal circumstances, is misguided at best and racist bullshit at worst. It would be like somebody coming along and insisting you get the fuck up out of your chair and walk because they are tired of accommodating you.

I'm curious: most of the racist bullshit rhetoric here has been under the assumption we're talking about Mexicans. But I live in an area with a great many immigrants from other countries, such as Bosnian, Jamaican, Rwandan, Italian, etc. Do you feel, for example that immigrants from war torn places, who come here as a matter of survival, should also acquire instant English skills? Or is your xenophobia limited to Mexicans?

 

[Tamar_Garish]

Listen you stupid fuck...I never said "instantly". Assholes like you always call anyone who expects anything from immigrants "racist" or "xenophobic" and all it does is highlight your own racism and prejudice that you believe they are lesser and shouldn't be expected to learn a few phrases of a new language before moving to a new country.

I said the basics....scads of these fuckers come here knowing not a single word and then refuse to learn anything and expect the rest of the country to accomodate them simply because they graced us with their presence....and more often than not, it's the ILLEGALS who do it the most...and they can fuck themselves.

And yes, I expect it from any kind of immigrant and since I live in a state that is a refuge for Somalians, I experience it. Those folks though, have and do make a major effort to communicate in English while keeping their culture alive and I respect that....and these are refugees.

So fuck lazy fuckers who think they are entitled to anything. And fuck you for being an apologist for them.

 

[Bickendan]

Actually, I'd kind of like all those gas station dork jobs to shut the fuck up and just do their job.

You do realize that only Oregon and New Jersey outlaw self-serve pumping, right?

 

[Donovan]

The number of misinformed, inaccurate, or simply stupid assumptions in this post are almost too much to address, but I'll try.

Listen you stupid fuck

Name calling is never an effective argument, especially if it's incorrect. One of us is suggesting tolerance and patience, the other is suggesting they hide themselves from any human contact with their host country until they become "educated." Exactly which is the stupid argument here?

...I never said "instantly".

No, you insisted they acquire a skill as complex as language mastery at a speed that a) has been proven nearly impossible for most people and b) you yourself cannot or will not do.

Assholes like you always call anyone who expects anything from immigrants "racist" or "xenophobic"

Racism: prejudicial treatment of an individual or group based on color, creed, or ethnicity. Xenophobia: Irrational fear or dislike of cultures alien or foreign to one's own. Who, in this entire discourse, more accurately fits that description?

and all it does is highlight your own racism and prejudice that you believe they are lesser and shouldn't be expected to learn a few phrases of a new language before moving to a new country.

I prefer to think it highlights my life experience and education that I understand there are those whose life events are different from mine, and that I may learn something from them if I am tolerant. Say it with me: Tol. Er. Ant.

I said the basics....scads of these fuckers come here knowing not a single word and then refuse to learn anything and expect the rest of the country to accomodate them simply because they graced us with their presence....and more often than not, it's the ILLEGALS who do it the most...and they can fuck themselves.

This statement clearly shows you have little or no direct experience with migrant workers, immigrants of ANY type, and that most of your "evidence" is gleaned from tv or other reactionary sources. Turn off Fox News, it's not helping you.

And yes, I expect it from any kind of immigrant and since I live in a state that is a refuge for Somalians, I experience it. Those folks though, have and do make a major effort to communicate in English while keeping their culture alive and I respect that....and these are refugees.

I doubt your direct experience claims. I suspect that again, your experience is anecdotal and the the Somalis benefit from the good press of "not being Mexican".

So fuck lazy fuckers who think they are entitled to anything. And fuck you for being an apologist for them.

My direct experience with immigrants has been that almost to a man they are the antithesis of "lazy." Migrant workers perform the most backbreaking jobs, often for wages you and I would become enraged at, and do so from dawn until dusk. Immigrants from a great many countries come here with a work ethic unrivaled by Americans, and simply put they bust their asses to achieve the American Dream we take for granted.
I don't apologize for immigrants, I suggest wider acceptance and tolerance. I would reconsider my position if you could prove in ANY way how having a spanish language form available at the DMV has made your life worse, or provide and example IN ANY WAY how a language barrier has caused you direct harm or insurmountable inconvenience. And no, having to listen to spanish music doesn't count.

 

[Tamar_Garish]

Do you ever tire of wanking off to your own strawmen?

I never said nor implied they should "hide themselves from any human contact with their host country until they become "educated."

What I did say, was they should not get a job serving the public without at least the very basics of some English. not "language mastery"

As for what I can or will not do....Se mas Espanol que el sabe el ingles e necesidad de t el .... madre chingada.

The rest of your shit it just that...bullshit and I will give it the attention it deserves...none. Next time, at least address what I actually said and not your hay bale fantasy version.

 

[Donovan]

Do you ever tire of wanking off to your own strawmen?

I'll let you know. They're very absorbent. Do you ever get tired of resorting to attempts to mask the weakness of your argument with personal attacks and random obscenities?

I never said nor implied they should "hide themselves from any human contact with their host country until they become "educated."

Then they should not get a job in a majority English-speaking public sector until THEY learn the basics of English... the onus is on the immigrant to educate themselves...

Again I say, how do you propose they do this without surrounding themselves with speakers of other languages?

What I did say, was they should not get a job serving the public without at least the very basics of some English. not "language mastery"

Sure, we'll always need servants, pool cleaners and people who pick fruit. I get it.

As for what I can or will not do....Se mas Espanol que el sabe el ingles e necesidad de t el .... madre chingada.

Irrelevant statement considering you have access to a computer and whatever translation mechanism you care to use. Your sentence construction is horrible and shows a lack of basic mechanics. I'd suggest you stay out of public sector jobs for a while.

The rest of your shit it just that...bullshit and I will give it the attention it deserves...none. Next time, at least address what I actually said and not your hay bale fantasy version.

What I said was, give me an example of how speakers of other languages have DIRECTLY made your quality of life worse for having not learned english. Anything. One single instance. Maybe a hispanic orderly read your pill bottle wrong, or your cleaning lady fucked up your delicates because she washed them in the wrong temperature. ANYTHING!

You can't. And neither can anyone else on your wrongheaded side of this ridiculous argument. Having spanish forms, clerks, and road signs is not an inconvenience to anyone except those with some sort of axe to grind, and that says more about you than the people you are targetting. I seriously doubt, where you live, that Spanish language is even much of an issue. More Frenchies than Beaners up there, I'd suspect.

If you still care to thrash out a response, please try to do so without name-calling or personal attacks in either language. While your position is ludicrous and deserves mockery, I don't think I've tried to insult you personally in this exchange. Grow up a little, thanks.

 

[Donovan]

and more often than not, it's the ILLEGALS who do it the most...and they can fuck themselves.

It's funny how quickly the racist side of an argument goes right to the letter of the law. "Oh, it's illegal, that makes them bad people."

Sure it does. OR, it makes them people who are unlucky enough to be born on the wrong side of an imaginary line that separates the haves from the have nots, and they're trying very hard to correct that oversight. If it means sneaking across the imaginary line then so be it.

On this month in history, little over a hundred some-odd years ago, a woman in my town was arrested and fined for doing something illegal. She knew it was a crime, and did it deliberately anyway. What a goddamn criminal Susan B Anthony was. How dare she try to vote!!!!! Today in history the women's rights movement started in Seneca Falls, with an illegal meeting to plan and actively break the law by demonstrating, inciting public disobedience, and of course disrupting voting.

Worse, my town is the final resting place of uppity nigger Frederick Douglass, another criminal. Freddie was an escaped slave who not only taught himself to read and write, a crime punishable by physical torture and even hanging, but once that darkie escaped (another crime) he helped OTHER slaves escape their slavery by colluding, assisting and hiding them with the help of his nigger-loving white friends. Criminals, all of them.

At various times until very recently in our country's history, homosexuality, sodomy, nonpayment of debt, vagrancy, interracial dating and the enjoyment of alcohol were all illegal as hell. I'd be willing to bet that makes pretty much every person on this board a scofflaw in some fashion. Further, in my state adultery is STILL on the books as a criminal offense, and in point of fact a woman was arrested last week for exactly that. And don't even get me started on what the law used to state should be done with people who had physical impairments and developmental disabilities.

I trust that puts your foolish "Illegals" take to rest. Not all laws are correct, and not all lawbreakers are criminals. To paint them all with that brush is unfair at best.

 

[Tamar_Garish]

Sure it does. OR, it makes them people who are unlucky enough to be born on the wrong side of an imaginary line that separates the haves from the have nots, and they're trying very hard to correct that oversight. If it means sneaking across the imaginary line then so be it.

This is a huge steaming pile of crap.

I hope a homeless guy breaks into your house, moves in and expects you to pay the rent, feed, clothe and provide medical and education for him. Not only that, I hope he only speaks Arabesh and expects you to learn the language and only get books, magazines and newspapers printed in Arabesh. Once he gets settled, he will move in his 20 relatives who will all correct their unfair circumstances in life by just taking whatever you have.

Don't protest, you racist, prejudiced bigot....just get out there and work for social justice.

 

[Donovan]

This is a huge steaming pile of crap.

Thanks for the forewarning, but I pretty much knew what was gonna be in your post before I opened it.

I hope a homeless guy breaks into your house, moves in and expects you to pay the rent, feed, clothe and provide medical and education for him. Not only that, I hope he only speaks Arabesh and expects you to learn the language and only get books, magazines and newspapers printed in Arabesh. Once he gets settled, he will move in his 20 relatives who will all correct their unfair circumstances in life by just taking whatever you have.

Don't protest, you racist, prejudiced bigot....just get out there and work for social justice.

LOL thanks for not going to personal attacks or anything. It makes your argument much stronger. I used to have a homeless deadbeat that moved into my house, made me pay for rent and meals, made me pay for medical and education expenses, buy clothing, books and magazines, spoke in an incomprehensible language, made me deal with scads of horrible relatives then had the nerve to get pissed off and throw ME out when tensions rose.

They call those "wives".

But hey, thanks for the well wishes. In return, I hope that you are never forced into a situation where you must choose between following a law or becoming a rulebreaker, if staying obedient means your family will suffer greatly in the process or perhaps die. I also hope that you are never treated as shabbily as the people you are currently denigrating get treated every single day. That would be a shame.