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Arizona Congresswoman Gabrielle Gifford Gunned down at Grocery Store

btw I read the other thread eloisel. I listened to the news tonight and tried to think about the stories I heard from a different perspective. My views did not change very much.
The violence affects everybody, none is more important than the other, but like I said, some people would still be alive if other people knew how to control thier anger.

Just this weekend there is a story of someone who got shot in the head because of road rage. He survived, but the shooter got away. Am I thinking about that shooter or the shooter's family? No, not so much.
 
In light of Palin's "I'm not telling you that these people need to die but I'm painting targets on them anyway" map, the fact that there is a right wing media bubble that is virtually unpoppable and the pressure cooker the US is in has been turned up to high....perhaps SuN has a point. Perhaps you don't trot on down to the supermarket to get on a soap box and expect shit not to go down. Of course this is a worst case scenario.

Perhaps everybody; left, right, teabagger, hippies..they all need to check their heads. But everyone's going to sleep right on through this wake-up call...
 
I joke about stockpiling ammo, MRE's and teenage girls.

I also think about the growing restlessness of a lot of people I know, the feeling of helplessness that our political system is owned and operated by special interests. I think that there really is going to be some civil unrest (probably not a full-blown civil war...there's not a clear cut "enemy" to fight). In the bigger cities, particularly LA, it's going to get VERY ugly.

IMHO.

And as for the shooter: political or not, he killed six people who were NOT politicians, including a 9 year old. No doubt he's mentally ill. However, he still killed 6, head-shot but didn't kill his intended target. That makes him an ENEMY. He has no regard for collateral damage. He obviously doesn't value human life, innocent or otherwise.

So, try him. Give him due process. However, don't use an "insanity" defense. Insane or not he's proven he is dangerous. If he's found guilty, remove him as a danger. The trial should take about a month (actually, should be a day but the jurry might want to see the evidence more than once).

If we "just kill him", then WE loose. And really, with all of the money we spend on everything else, is a trial so expensive?
 
This country is sort of based on the idea that our elected officials are "of the people" not above the people. Now, it's probably not a great idea for a politician to be careless in public, but unless they're really high profile, I don't see why they shouldn't get out amongst their constituents. We make a big deal out of this because she was a Congresswoman, but the fact is people go nuts and kill other people all the time, and the media barely blinks. This guy didn't shoot Giffords because of her politics.
 
I should just stay in my house then. Live in fear. Don't use free speech. Don't piss anyone off.
 
here's the bottom line, he plugged that loud mouthed bitch right in the fucking head in broad daylight in front of everyone and SHUT HER THE FUCK UP and killed a federal judge too. This was his REAL mission.

Idiots like Palin post Tweets of Tucson with a red crosshairs on them and then act all open mouthed and surprised when their hate incites loose cannons like the shooter to go out and do that very thing.

It's no wake up call, it's business as usual.

Giffords had a concealed weapon in her purse btw.
 
Homo Erectus said:
THis WAS a thread about a tragedy. Now it's a thread about two women hounding each other.:phpeh:
Click to expand...

Actually, this is the better thread to discuss the death penalty. Here there is a reason, not sterile, emotionless hypothesis.

When the initial outrage dies down a bit, and should the killer be tried, convicted, and sentenced to death, people will stand vigil outside the prison in which he is incarcerated on his execution night. It will be all about how the system is unjust, and cruel, and vengeance is wrong. People will forget about that 9 year old girl, about those people who went to a local venue to see a public figure, who went to the store, who went to work. Maybe they will remember them, but it will be in a faint way, relegating them to the backpages of the story instead of the headline.

Some people have decided where they stand on the death penalty. Some advocate vigilantism. All I know is I go to the store often and work with public figures. I don't want the killer in this instance to ever be free to live anywhere near me.
 
I advocate due process.

And then a quick execution (if found guilty) via wood-chipper, feet first, within a week of the end of the trial. Oh, and no special "last meal", they get what the prison cafeteria's serving.
 
I've made clear where I stand on the matter. I'm not one of those who says the want for vengeance and retribution is wrong. If someone killed my children, I would want to slowly torture him to death. However, I feel that as a matter of public policy, the death penalty should be abolished. The reason, as I said before, is that it's irreversible if a mistake is made. It's also unnecessary for public safety. A person being incarcerated for life would serve the same purpose as far as keeping the public safe. Plus, if it's later shown that a mistake was made, (as has happened a disturbing amount of times) the person can be released, and compensation paid.

It brings to mind a show I watched on TV some years back. It was about a former executioner, Jerry Givens from Virginia who turned activist for abolishing the death penalty. He said he always felt he was doing the right thing, and that he was helping further justice. He always met with the prisoner before the execution, sometimes praying with them (slightly creepy, but whatever). With one prisoner, he wasn't so sure about the situation. When he met with him, he asked him "Please tell me you did it." the prisoner replied "I've made peace with my God. Have you made peace with yours?" Later, it was found out errors were made in the trial, and the prisoner was actually innocent. By that time it was far too late. So, I ask those of you who are for the death penalty, would you be willing to put your life or freedom on the line if you were wrong? If you were on the jury and you condemned someone to death, and later the person was found to be innocent, would you accept a life sentence in exchange for your part in the killing of an innocent man? That's something to think about.
 
eloisel said:
Actually, this is the better thread to discuss the death penalty. Here there is a reason, not sterile, emotionless hypothesis.

When the initial outrage dies down a bit, and should the killer be tried, convicted, and sentenced to death, people will stand vigil outside the prison in which he is incarcerated on his execution night. It will be all about how the system is unjust, and cruel, and vengeance is wrong. People will forget about that 9 year old girl, about those people who went to a local venue to see a public figure, who went to the store, who went to work. Maybe they will remember them, but it will be in a faint way, relegating them to the backpages of the story instead of the headline.

Some people have decided where they stand on the death penalty. Some advocate vigilantism. All I know is I go to the store often and work with public figures. I don't want the killer in this instance to ever be free to live anywhere near me.
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I think someone should get to tie the killer to a makeshift plywood pillory in a public meeting and extinguish cigarette butts on his genitalia and elsewhere.

Then perhaps a Drano Shake. Breakfast of Champions!

That would resolve it. Fuck that human rights bullshit. Think Jew m'dear. Eye for an eye. That woman should have done more that knock that weapon out of his hands,. She should have finished the job right there, saved everyone a lot of trouble.

Why do you think the little asshole didn't kill himself? He's got a fuckload to say yet, on our nickel no less.
 
jack said:
How about when it's a sure thing, then?
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Would you stake your life on it? If so, then fine. If not, well perhaps you need to re-evaluate your position. Since it's not necessary for public safety, and there are a lot of mistakes made, it's best to just not have it at all. How would you feel if it was you or a loved one who was killed by the state and were actually innocent? How much of a consolation is it when the government sends you a letter, (at most) saying "Oops, our bad. Sorry about that."
 
You know, if we kill off a few "innocent" people it will make people be more CAREFUL not to appear suspicious, steer clear of anything even remotely connecting them with crime! I mean if you are convicted of Murder, even wrongly, there has to have been SOME evidence connecting you to shady dealings even if the got the crime wrong, you are probably a criminal.

The streets will be much safer and more civil for the majority due to the sacrifice of a few. I mean we accept a casualty rate among Police, why not let a few Civilians (let's say 5 a year or less) share in the duty?

You know, greatest number helped...ect...yada yada...
 
eloisel said:
Actually, this is the better thread to discuss the death penalty. Here there is a reason, not sterile, emotionless hypothesis.

When the initial outrage dies down a bit, and should the killer be tried, convicted, and sentenced to death, people will stand vigil outside the prison in which he is incarcerated on his execution night. It will be all about how the system is unjust, and cruel, and vengeance is wrong. People will forget about that 9 year old girl, about those people who went to a local venue to see a public figure, who went to the store, who went to work. Maybe they will remember them, but it will be in a faint way, relegating them to the backpages of the story instead of the headline.

Some people have decided where they stand on the death penalty. Some advocate vigilantism. All I know is I go to the store often and work with public figures. I don't want the killer in this instance to ever be free to live anywhere near me.
Click to expand...

It's also a good thread to discuss mental illness and health care.
 
Consumer, I sincerely hope you're making a bad joke, because that's wrong and sick on so many levels.

Oh, and as an aside, you've touched upon a pet peeve of mine. Police ARE civilians. The Posse Comitatus Act REQUIRES police to be civilians. Police are not military, thus they are civilians. The military is forbidden (except under certain circumstances) to perform law enforcement functions.
 
True about the civilian point...

..although I was in one of those "special circumstances" as a Coast Guard MLE Officer. I had the power of arrest and had to go through police-type (specialized for the environment) training, including shoot/no-shoot qualification. I was also, as a Coastie, a member of the Armed Forces of the USA, subject to the UCMJ and the rest.

I used "civilian" in reference to non-police, not in the military sense.
 
Consumer said:
True about the civilian point...

..although I was in one of those "special circumstances" as a Coast Guard MLE Officer. I had the power of arrest and had to go through police-type (specialized for the environment) training, including shoot/no-shoot qualification. I was also, as a Coastie, a member of the Armed Forces of the USA, subject to the UCMJ and the rest.

I used "civilian" in reference to non-police, not in the military sense.
Click to expand...

The Coast Guard is the exception, as it was specially designed to function as both.
 
Consumer said:
You know, if we kill off a few "innocent" people it will make people be more CAREFUL not to appear suspicious, steer clear of anything even remotely connecting them with crime! I mean if you are convicted of Murder, even wrongly, there has to have been SOME evidence connecting you to shady dealings even if the got the crime wrong, you are probably a criminal.

The streets will be much safer and more civil for the majority due to the sacrifice of a few. I mean we accept a casualty rate among Police, why not let a few Civilians (let's say 5 a year or less) share in the duty?

You know, greatest number helped...ect...yada yada...
Click to expand...

A man just got shot recently in Seattle, walked in front of a police car, he was carrying a knife, and a wood block. The guy was hard of hearing, the officer asked him to put down the knife, he didn't and the officer shot him. Dead.
The guy might have also been inebriated, there is a dash cam vid of it, not the shooting tho.

Shooting a few "innocent" people could cause even further violence and outrage.

Or in this case, a drum circle outside of the courthouse.
 
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